It's Confederate History Month in Dixie

[PanzerJaeger]

Fair points but the undertow of all these issues was the way of life which Southeners had built for themselves on the backs of slaves. This way of life only worked because of the ability to export large amount of cotton to European markets and for that you needed slaves, a gin, and no protectionism.

In a way the antebellum south was the ani-thesis of the industrial revolution. A largely agrain socitey subsisting on an underclass compared to the north which was indusrializing at an alarming rate. The real blame lies in the way the constitution was framed. States rights nor slavery are ever flat out addressed and this of course leads to everyone interpeting it as they damn well please.

The overtones in the state constitutions are quite clear what the Confederates thought about the black man (which to be fair was the prevading thought at the time for all peoples).

The election of Lincoln is also a paper tiger, The corwin amendment had been agreed upon by every major presidential nominee in 1860

As you look at what these men said and where the loudest voices for secession was coming from, it becomes quite clear what the engine of the CSA was

I agree that the primary reason for the divergence of the North and the South was the disparity in economic systems, but I think you are putting too much emphasis on the role slavery played in the motivations of those who fought for the South. Slaves were an expensive luxury that most Southerners would never have, especially considering the fact that the South continued the ban on new importation. The vast majority of Southern whites worked their own farms or on those of others. The federal tariffs and other laws which increasingly favored Northern industry at the expense of Southern agriculture hurt these non-slave owning Southerners just as badly, if not more so. For most, the war was about the North dominating the South through the federal government.

[Subotan]

If I remember correctly, the confederate constitution was basically a copy of the US constitution, with a proviso added that said slaves were allowed. Other articles that had been widely criticized as being detrimental to states rights were left intact.

As well as it being illegal for a state to secede from the Confederacy.

. For most, the war was about the North dominating the South through the federal government.

True, but that is exactly why any such attempts to commemorate the Confederacy should be treated with caution. I think we can all feel sympathy for Johnny Reb who went out and died to prevent Northern Aggression, but we also have to consider why the institutions which allowed him to fight were created. They were created due to a clash over states rights, on the issue of slavery. Ergo, the Confederacy was fighting for slavery, and so was Johnny Reb. He may not have been fighting for slavery in his conscience, but in the bigger picture, that is the only thing he was fighting for. As slavery as an phenomenon is indefensible, so are the institutions which uphold it, and that includes the Confederate States of America.

Commemorating the Confederacy is in many ways similar to commemorating Imperial Germany. Although Fritz von Boche may not have been fighting to extend germany deep into Ukraine, it is undeniable that the Imperial German Government was, and that the German Empire was an imperialistic, militarised and aggressive state. Any commemoration of the German Empire and it's culture/citizens is thus tainted with those qualities, as any commemoration of the CSA is with slavery. To put it another way, I think we can all agree that the world was better off for the Central Powers losing WWI. Likewise, we can be glad that the South lost the American Civil War.

[PanzerJaeger]

True, but that is exactly why any such attempts to commemorate the Confederacy should be treated with caution. I think we can all feel sympathy for Johnny Reb who went out and died to prevent Northern Aggression, but we also have to consider why the institutions which allowed him to fight were created. They were created due to a clash over states rights, on the issue of slavery. Ergo, the Confederacy was fighting for slavery, and so was Johnny Reb. He may not have been fighting for slavery in his conscience, but in the bigger picture, that is the only thing he was fighting for. As slavery as an phenomenon is indefensible, so are the institutions which uphold it, and that includes the Confederate States of America.

In that case, we should cancel 4th of July celebrations and American history as a whole should not be commemorated, as the nation was essentially created through aggressive expansionist policies and the destruction of hundreds of other nations. A more mature view, in my opinion, is to realize that these commemorative holidays celebrate the positive elements of a particular group's history, and that the vast majority of people are intelligent enough to be able to separate the good from the bad. In that vein, I do not believe anyone seriously views Confederate History Month as a celebration of slavery.

Those seeking to make hay over this are a) the typical black profiteers that come out of the woodwork every time anything even vaguely related to race comes up and b) Democrats seeking to score some political points against Governer McDonnell.

Commemorating the Confederacy is in many ways similar to commemorating Imperial Germany. Although Fritz von Boche may not have been fighting to extend germany deep into Ukraine, it is undeniable that the Imperial German Government was, and that the German Empire was an imperialistic, militarised and aggressive state. Any commemoration of the German Empire and it's culture/citizens is thus tainted with those qualities, as any commemoration of the CSA is with slavery. To put it another way, I think we can all agree that the world was better off for the Central Powers losing WWI. Likewise, we can be glad that the South lost the American Civil War.

Couldn't disagree more!

[Megas Methuselah]

In that case, we should cancel 4th of July celebrations and American history as a whole should not be commemorated, as the nation was essentially created through aggressive expansionist policies and the destruction of hundreds of other nations.

I know, eh?

[Centurion1]

The civil war occurred because two diametrically opposed economic systems cannot survive together but must either merge or seperate.

In essence the Civil War was a bunch of poor white southern mountain boys fighting for something they could only dream of, plantation lifestyles. Slavery however was only the spark that blew up the US. Sparks within that spark were Harper's Ferry, Dred Scott Case, Republicans Election, Free Soil movement, etc.

I read an article in the Washington Post (hate it) where some guy name Andrez (sp?) Martinez is talking about how he refuses to go down lee street or something and how he doesn't want his kid to go to Washington-Lee high school.

Garbage.

[DisruptorX]

Well, recognizing that Slavery was the central issue of the time and that "states rights" is a euphemism for one right in particular doesn't mean that one should discard his heritage or deny it. No one alive today (or for quite a long time) is responsible for the institution of slavery or involved with it, why feel that you need to pretend that the the war was about something else? No one has any duty to either condemn or disguise the actions of their ancestors. What happened happened, and pretending that it didn't doesn't change that. Apologism seems just as silly as that man you mention. Southerners weren't ashamed at all of their institution of slavery, they strongly believed in it.

Hating on confederates seems to me the same as hating on various American leaders who enacted unjust policies as Indians, such as Jackson. Why bother? To seem edgy? No one denies it happened, or condones it, so why would one waste such effort?

You won't find a single person who is seriously pro-slavery alive today.

[Watchman]

You will, however, find only too many who are seriously racist alive today.
And for some strange reason such people seem to have a taste for the "stars and bars" as a decorative element... funny that.

Just sayin'.

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

Commemorating the Confederacy is in many ways similar to commemorating Imperial Germany. Although Fritz von Boche may not have been fighting to extend germany deep into Ukraine, it is undeniable that the Imperial German Government was, and that the German Empire was an imperialistic, militarised and aggressive state. Any commemoration of the German Empire and it's culture/citizens is thus tainted with those qualities, as any commemoration of the CSA is with slavery. To put it another way, I think we can all agree that the world was better off for the Central Powers losing WWI. Likewise, we can be glad that the South lost the American Civil War.

Although it's off-topic, the Allied victory in WW1 set up it's far more terrible sequel.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Had the Secession never happened, or had the South seceded and won its independence, slavery would still have been scrapped within a few decades. The economics of mass production and the mechanization of agriculture would have killed it even if common morality did not. So, even a souther victory would have done little more than extend it a while. Slavery would have been "legal" for much longer, but functionally discarded almost as quickly as it was.

Most of the lads on both sides fought because of the excitement of the thing -- seeing the elephant -- and the rush of excitement as all of their neighbors volunteered and what not. This paled as the war progressed and conscription became necessary, but by then too much blood had been spilled for much in the way of "live and let live" to occur. The South fought for its way of life and to continue its right to own slaves. The North fought because the South needed to be taught a lesson (and eventually to end slavery as well). The South did not fight a war of aggression -- yet was by far the more bellicose of the two.

A sad era.

[The Lurker Below]

I must agree that essentially the war was fought because of slavery, regardless of the semantics and details that many can bring should they wish.

Having said that I can't help but be amused that Lincoln freed no slaves, and before it was over the CSA did free theirs.

[Skullheadhq]

fighting to extend germany deep into Ukraine, it is undeniable that the Imperial German Government was.

Actually, Germany officially didn't get a sqaure inch of land. In every occupied State (Russian Poland, Baltics and the Ukraine) puppet regimes were set up. So no, the Imperial German Government wasn't planning to extend into Ukraine.

Also, Germany (Prussia) was the first one to abolish child labor (somewhere in the 1830's) and make education compulsatory, while the US did this more then 100 years later, in 1938.

[Azathoth]

Also, Germany (Prussia) was the first one to abolish child labor (somewhere in the 1830's) and make education compulsatory, while the US did this more then 100 years later, in 1938.

Always thought it was 1918.

[Skullheadhq]

Always thought it was 1918.

Nope, Prussia wanted education for all for a quicker industrialisation, and they thought child labour was morally wrong (which it is).
1918 was the year the republic was proclaimed, before that it was a Constitutional Monarchy/Parliamentary Democracy.
The kaiser wanted to do even more social reforms, which is the reason he fired Bismarck, but he couldn't finish his job after the (failed) revolution in Germany.

But back on topic: Didn't the south do the union a favor by seceding?

[Azathoth]

Nope, Prussia wanted education for all for a quicker industrialisation, and they thought child labour was morally wrong (which it is).
1918 was the year the republic was proclaimed, before that it was a Constitutional Monarchy/Parliamentary Democracy.
The kaiser wanted to do even more social reforms, which is the reason he fired Bismarck, but he couldn't finish his job after the (failed) revolution in Germany.

But back on topic: Didn't the south do the union a favor by seceding?

You misunderstand. I thought education in the United States was compulsory by 1918.

[A Nerd]

Didn't the south do the union a favor by seceding?

Perhaps, but that depends on who had the most to gain by the North winning the war. Surely the generation lost fighting all the battles gained little. Abolishonist civilians, perhaps. I think politicians who could enforce thier vision of what the south could be, did with war what could not be done in congress. They, in my opinion, gained the most. Sure, blacks were free, but it took another 100 years for any slight sense of equality.

[Strike For The South]

I agree that the primary reason for the divergence of the North and the South was the disparity in economic systems, but I think you are putting too much emphasis on the role slavery played in the motivations of those who fought for the South. Slaves were an expensive luxury that most Southerners would never have, especially considering the fact that the South continued the ban on new importation. The vast majority of Southern whites worked their own farms or on those of others. The federal tariffs and other laws which increasingly favored Northern industry at the expense of Southern agriculture hurt these non-slave owning Southerners just as badly, if not more so. For most, the war was about the North dominating the South through the federal government.

I agree that regular old Johnny had no bone in this fight, but the men whom voted on secession did. The tariffs affected the yeoman very little as he had very little to sell internationaly to begin with.

The North dominated the south only because the elite in the South refused to change due to the fact they had rigged the game in the first place. Domonation only came when the Southern elite refused to see the writing on the wall and felt the only true explanation could be those damned Yanks were trying to poach on their way of life.

I dont mean to come off sounding as classist but the American South was exactly that and the majority of Southeners were forced into a war they did not want.

[DisruptorX]

I agree that the primary reason for the divergence of the North and the South was the disparity in economic systems, but I think you are putting too much emphasis on the role slavery played in the motivations of those who fought for the South. Slaves were an expensive luxury that most Southerners would never have, especially considering the fact that the South continued the ban on new importation. The vast majority of Southern whites worked their own farms or on those of others. The federal tariffs and other laws which increasingly favored Northern industry at the expense of Southern agriculture hurt these non-slave owning Southerners just as badly, if not more so. For most, the war was about the North dominating the South through the federal government.

That assumes that Slavery was not a system that non slave holders supported or aspired to be part of. But really, as you suggest, non-slave holders were simply fighting for their nation, of which slavery was a fundamental institution. They weren't fighitng for slavery in the abstract, no. But you really can't divorce the South from the institution of slavery.

Do you have examples of letters or whatnot of non slave holders discussing why they fought? I think that would be rather interesting. Certainly all the top level political disputes, conflicts, and even battles leading up to the civil war were directly tied to slavery, but that is different than saying the average footman was fighting for that cause in particular.