Hoplites vs Hypaspists =?

[paleologos]

Hello to every one!
I suspect this one has been asked before but I can't help asking...

Why is it so difficult for epilektoi hoplites to defeat the hypaspists, ep. hop. melee stat is 17 vs 12 for the hyps and all other things are equal.

And when do the hypaspistai use their spears?

And why haven't the hoplites been given their short swords (xiphe) and they are made to fight with spears even on top of walls?
(In my 1st EB campaign with KH -I use max unit size- three of my generals have Spartans for bodyguards and in one engagement on top of walls between my spartans and enemy peltasts I lost 20 Spartans. They all triped and fell!)

Will all of my generals who have the Spartiates attribute also have spartan bodyguards or does this happen just in the beginning of the game? -Their upkeep has to be paid for instead of the regular general's bodyguard for the KH who are for free.

Thanks in advance!

[SwissBarbar]

Epilektoi Hoplitai fight with a spear, while hypaspists fight with a sword, this might be the cause.

No, your generals will all have Epilektoi Hoplitai. Only the ones you start with have spartiatai hoplitai

[satalexton]

there's a hard code problemand an animation issue with secondary weapons...,..

[Lvcretivs]

...regarding#1: It may have to do with different weapon-bound lethality stats - the hypaspists' swords have an lethality of 0.225, while the Epilektoi wield a 0.13 lethality spear.
...regarding#4: Spartiatai bodyguards are exclusive limited to KH FMs living at the game's starting date, every new FM - regardless of ethnicity traits - will have the generic KH somatophylakes.

[Fluvius Camillus]

Epilektoi Hoplitai were a group of very good hoplites, while the Hypaspistai are the Hellenistic Royal Guard, an elite unit. Hypaspistai are meant to be strong, and in close combat very hard to defeat.

The hypaspistai can either use spear or sword. They charge with spears and usually fight with swords, if you command them to fight with spears (good vs cavalry), they will do so, but change back to swords after some time.

If you had given the hoplitai secondary swords, the AI would use the swords the most. This would be ahistorical. Just take a look at the Iphokratous (spelling?) hoplitai, in hands of the AI, they usually grab their short swords, even in situations where they really shouldn't.

Your STARTING family members with the Spartiatai ethnicity will have Spartiates Hoplitai as Bodyguard, while all others have Somatophylakes Strategou, any Spartiatai family members who come of age will get the regular bodyguards too. Enjoy them while you can!

Hope that helps!

~Fluvius

[athanaric]

Hypaspistai are meant to be strong, and in close combat very hard to defeat.

And yet they will lose one on one to unarmoured Bastarnae falxmen.

[Fluvius Camillus]

And yet they will lose one on one to unarmoured Bastarnae falxmen.

And that is the power of armour piercing weapons with reasonably high lethality my friend.

Try Thracian Elites versus TAB's

~Fluvius

[seienchin]

And yet they will lose one on one to unarmoured Bastarnae falxmen.

No they dont. Really where did you see something like that?
I made more than 100battles to determin who the best troop is and for now, noone ever got more kills and less casualties than the hypaspitai. If they dont break formation or are charged by cavallery they are extremly powerfull.
Bastarnae cant beat them for the simple reason, that their armour even halved is extremly high and they also have their defense skill and shield.

[athanaric]

No they dont. Really where did you see something like that?

In campaign, attacking a full unit of Hypaspistai with a somewhat depleted Bastarnae unit of the same experience level. On the central plaza of Demetrias. Bastarnae were winning despite of heavy losses, until the Hypaspistai were down to 30 or 40 men. Then I decided to move in some Vojinos to get it over more quickly.

Bastarnae cant beat them for the simple reason, that their armour even halved is extremly high and they also have their defense skill and shield.

Mid to top tier Barbarian units have very high def skill, not to forget superior stamina. A long fight exhausts the Hypaspistai far sooner, which causes some of their stats to drop.

In fact, fatigue of Hellenistic elite units is one of the best friends of a Saba or Barbarian player.

And FWIW, mina or mina you can always take those elite units down with far cheaper units. Drapanai and the likes are the best for that job. For the price of one Dosidataskeli unit, you can zerg rush them with three units of Drapanai.

[mountaingoat]

And yet they will lose one on one to unarmoured Bastarnae falxmen.

fear the falx ? .. and i think hypaspists are one of the few units that can hold and defeat elite thracian falxmen .. ( though it is close )

[Apázlinemjó]

And that is the power of armour piercing weapons with reasonably high lethality my friend.

Try Thracian Elites versus TAB's

~Fluvius

I ran a few tests a few months ago and the TABs beat the Thracian Leet falxmen always. ;o

Edit: Or was it the Dosidataskeli? I Forgot it.

[SwissBarbar]

Always depends on what difficulty-level you play. I assume you tested it all in Medium?

[Duguntz]

Because the game is balanced to be played on medium, it's normal that all test should be made on medium

[SwissBarbar]

Yes, exactly, I play my campaigns only in Medium. But not all do know. That's why I ask ;-)
On VH your Hypaspists get slaughtered by the grandma of every barbarian light spearman

[Duguntz]

On VH your Hypaspists get slaughtered by the grandma of every barbarian light spearman

So true, so true

[Fluvius Camillus]

I ran a few tests a few months ago and the TABs beat the Thracian Leet falxmen always. ;o

Edit: Or was it the Dosidataskeli? I Forgot it.

That was my point, I love how TAB's slaughter almost anything.

~Fluvius

[Duguntz]

what means TAB? The Almighty Bastarnae?

[SwissBarbar]

No, this means "thy awesome berserkers"

[Fluvius Camillus]

what means TAB? The Almighty Bastarnae?

The button above caps lock

Thorakitai Agematos Basilikou, one of my favourite units. They are the strongest Hellenic Infantry available, recruitable only by the Arche Seleukeia. Say, foot catanks. While they are not the strongest unit in game, they come very close and when you encounter the Grey Death phenomenon, these guys will make your life miserable. They are death in a mail suit.



They score high in sheer badassery and they do not care wether you form the royal guard of a faction, have a giant AP falx or if you fight butt naked, they will destroy you!

Few units can defeat them, of course repeated catank charges in the rear kill anything, but in a one on one fair fight, very few can stand against them. Their big brothers in Iberia (now taken out of the campaign, still available in custom battle) are one of those few. Try them both in a custom battle versus whatever unit you think can defeat them in a 1v1 fair fight.



~Fluvius

[Apázlinemjó]

Always depends on what difficulty-level you play. I assume you tested it all in Medium?

Medium, 1 on 1 unit wise, no chevrons, tried with loose formation, with few and lots of rows. Even the leet falxmen couldn't chew through the marching tanks.

[athanaric]

While they are not the strongest unit in game, they come very close and when you encounter the Grey Death phenomenon, these guys will make your life miserable. They are death in a mail suit.

They soured my Saba campaign when I discovered that Arabian Slingers are useless against them. Eventually I figured how to utilize fatigue and light axemen...

[Zradha Pahlavan]

Thorakitai Agematos Basilikou

Damn, those guys have always found ways to piss me off. I remember the first time I saw them in my Pahlavan campaign, it didn't matter what direction you shot arrows at them from, they just wouldn't go down...
There was a large army of them that the Seleucids had once that I simply refused to fight. I didn't have the kind of soldiers for it. They almost retook Babylon, but luckily they were distracted by a Pontic invasion further west and went to deal with that.
I tried to reach my Pontic allies in time to help them, but by the time my troops made it there, Pontus was no more.

[Megas Methuselah]

Damn, those guys have always found ways to piss me off. I remember the first time I saw them in my Pahlavan campaign, it didn't matter what direction you shot arrows at them from, they just wouldn't go down...
There was a large army of them that the Seleucids had once that I simply refused to fight. I didn't have the kind of soldiers for it. They almost retook Babylon, but luckily they were distracted by a Pontic invasion further west and went to deal with that.
I tried to reach my Pontic allies in time to help them, but by the time my troops made it there, Pontus was no more.

Hahaha, awesome! I have to give it to you man, this post made me laugh over and over and over again.

[Fluvius Camillus]

Damn, those guys have always found ways to piss me off. I remember the first time I saw them in my Pahlavan campaign, it didn't matter what direction you shot arrows at them from, they just wouldn't go down...
There was a large army of them that the Seleucids had once that I simply refused to fight. I didn't have the kind of soldiers for it. They almost retook Babylon, but luckily they were distracted by a Pontic invasion further west and went to deal with that.
I tried to reach my Pontic allies in time to help them, but by the time my troops made it there, Pontus was no more.

I lost my first EB campaign to them (Saba 0,8), I was fighting the Ptollies near Pselkis and from Gerrha I took Charax. But an army with quite some TAB's attacked me there and I thougth, wow, these guys look pretty strong. It appeared that they were near indestructible and my Sab'yn levies lost quite hard. That meant that I could not head to Babylon and Seleukeia. Because I could not sack those cities, there was no cash to defeat the Ptolemaic armies on the other border. I had not enough cash to garisson large cities and was stuck, slowly being eaten by AS and Ptollies. I then gave up!

~Fluvius

[Zradha Pahlavan]

I lost my first EB campaign to them (Saba 0,8)

I fear that my Saba campaign may be going the same way, seeing as that the Seleucids and the Ptolemies are allied against me. I haven't seen any of those TAB guys yet, but my suspicion is that they're coming soon. Currently my hopes are placed on the use of Ethiopian elephants to augment my forces against them, assuming I can figure out how to recruit those critters.

Hahaha, awesome! I have to give it to you man, this post made me laugh over and over and over again.

In a way it was kind of awesome, especially when my rescue army was on its way to the Pontic capital, and every city they came to had been taken by the Seleucids only a short time before. My army was only one season too late to save the Pontic king from the Grey Death. It had to be one of the most epic events I've seen in EB.

[athanaric]

I fear that my Saba campaign may be going the same way, seeing as that the Seleucids and the Ptolemies are allied against me. I haven't seen any of those TAB guys yet, but my suspicion is that they're coming soon. Currently my hopes are placed on the use of Ethiopian elephants to augment my forces against them, assuming I can figure out how to recruit those critters.

Levels four and five regional barracks. Level five allows access to Bush Elephants, who are twice as strong but have utterly pathetic morale (4).

[Marcus Darkstar]

Thorakitai Agematos Basilikou, one of my favourite units.

~Fluvius

~Fluvius

They always looked awsome to me but I've yet to get a chance to use them. Gotta have March of Time event triggered as Sel to get them?

[Fluvius Camillus]

They always looked awsome to me but I've yet to get a chance to use them. Gotta have March of Time event triggered as Sel to get them?

No cataphract reform (the specific Seleukid reform), they are some sort of foot cataphracts and need some delay, so they're included. I get them now in my campaign, but I have yet to utilize them in battle!

~Fluvius

[Ludens]

No cataphract reform (the specific Seleukid reform), they are some sort of foot cataphracts and need some delay, so they're included.

They become available following the Seleucid cataphract reform, but they aren't "foot cataphracts". I get a bit annoyed by that term because it gives the wrong impression. Their tactical role is unrelated to shock-cavalry, nor was their development inspired by that of cataphracts. The only thing they have in common is that they are superheavy versions of their respective unit type.

[Marcus Darkstar]

They become available following the Seleucid cataphract reform, but they aren't "foot cataphracts". I get a bit annoyed by that term because it gives the wrong impression. Their tactical role is unrelated to shock-cavalry, nor was their development inspired by that of cataphracts. The only thing they have in common is that they are superheavy versions of their respective unit type.

I dunno ever look at the Late Parthain Cataphracts helments/armor with the ones they use.



file://localhost/C:/Program%20Files/EB%20Documentation/Units%20Documentation/Info/steppe_cavalry_grivpanvar_INFO.jpg

Huh huh? anyways Foot Cataphracts is just an anology refering to their ultraheavy armor tank like qualities.