SPQR? Who?

[plutoboyz]

Thanks, would Gimp work well (if they're now Vista compatible) in this endeavor?

I don't know about gimp. never try it. if its Vector-based, it should work well.

[satalexton]

btw, just remove Romani from EB and start a campaign with it. then see what happen.

We actually have a concept for a submod with just that, lurking adrift in our group discussions.

[Ibrahim]

I don't know about gimp. never try it. if its Vector-based, it should work well.

it does.

[Grade_A_Beef]

Wait why would the Phoenician culture take up so much of the Mediterranean coast? They were never able to fully capture Sicily, and that was pretty much from Greek opposition alone. I doubt they'll be able to take mainland Greece...

In any case wouldn't any empire that arises from the Mediterranean still fall to the Great Migration that caused the collapse of the Western Roman Empire?

[Imperator Invictus]

….all you talked about were Celts, Muslims and Carthage, but Celts will never unify or have a single religion (like the Dacians who could unify the Thracians and had Zalmoxianism) and Islam could not appear without Christianity (because Mohamed won’t have the opportunity to travel in Eastern Empire and learn about Christianity), Zoroastrianism will be the dominant religion, and Carthage, well they don’t have the capability to expand more than Western Mediterranean.
You forgot about Dacians, with no Romans to conquer them I think that they will complete the unification, especially in the face of gothic and nomadic threats.
!!You should think first and than post something!!


Now, the real World without Romans:

- many Celtic kingdoms in Western Europe (they will never unify!)

- phoenic remnants in Italy, Spain and North Africa (some will be republics, they will colonize South America)

- Dacian Empire in Eastern Europe (will keep the bloody nomads in Asia, I am sure, because they kept for so many years the scytians, sarmatians and bastarnae)

- Goths in North Europe (will colonize North America)

- Persians in Anatolia (with the Zoroastrianism, because Islam could not appear without Christianity)

- In Asia the old civilizations Persia, India and China will have to couple with extra nomadic threats (Huns, Bulgars, Avars, Turks, Magyars) and their empires will fall a few times.

…so Brennus, you can give now your balloon

[plutoboyz]

I think Christianity would exist. but fewer follower because no Roman. Islam exist because its never relied on Christianity and yes fewer follower, because Persian still Zoroastrianism. although there are similarity between Islam and Christianity, it was because they came from same roots. not because Islam was influenced by Christianity.

[Hax]

I think Christianity would exist. but fewer follower because no Roman.

Christianity needed a Romanesque society to flourish.

[Imperator Invictus]

Christianity will not exist because the Parthians will conquer the Seleucid domains and Judea will be an ally or protectorate of Parthians and the Jewish society won’t require a messiah to free them.
Probably the Hasmoneans and the Ptolemeis will remain in power as puppets of Parthians. First, they will require Parthian help against the Seleucids, and later to remain in power. I imagine this because in real history they allied with the Romans against Seleucids, and with no Romans it's naturally they will go tho the Parthians

Maybe John the Baptist and Jesus will manage to reform the Orthodox Judaism but it will be a reformed Judaism (not Christianity), only for Jews. So please try to imagine the historical evolution without Christianity and Islam......
You have Zoroastrianism, Zalmoxianism, Germanic and Celtic Polytheism....etc. so live Christianity and Islam
You could imagine however how the Phenician religion will evolve in South-West, perhaps will evolve in monotheism, with Baal as the only god.

[Ca Putt]

on religion:
Christianity would be unlikely to become more than a small regional cult if at all. Islam could exist and spread but It's unlikely that it would exist at all. You know the granpa paradox? imagine you'd just shoot your grandpa into the leg. that way it is still possible that you were born but though altering the timeline it is still VERY unlikely.

on Celts hmmm well I too doubt that they would have united out of nowhere to a great pan Celtic empire or less than 10 somewhat powerfull national states by 0ad. but I'd give them 400 years under constant german pressure to evolve into "something" that could maybe even withstand the hunnic invasion. maybe just a loose league of petty kingdoms somewhat like the Hellens. Surely tho they would have had some teconological advances on their own speaking of which I think that the Mediterranean area would not be much less technically evolved but that differences would be much greater in terms of who has developed what thus there would be great potential in technological exchange.

we have to remember that if Dacians or Celts or even Germans could withstand Nomadic invasions there would have been no dark ages, no middle ages and certainly no need for Renaissance. thus progress would have been much more linear than it was. without thousand years of darkness europe and north africa would have been further advanced compared to .... china(an area without much roman influence)

concerning supermacy, I'm not sure if carthage would have expanded as agressive as that surely they would have estabished a mighty trade empire throughout the Mediterranean and have contors on virtually every coast, I'm not certain that they would have gone further. they are the best candidate for discovering the new world(maybe a greek or celt would do it but they would fund it) but I doubt they would rule over italian mainland for any supstancial amount of time.
as I'm not very well informed about the Italic peoples I'm unsure who would have pervailed but as rumor has it its the samnites^^ and then we have our dear Phyrrus who has somewhat became an EB mascott.^^ beat the Samnites? yes maybe. ruled over italy? no, not him. he would have just been driven out of italy later. And we'd still call a Phyrric victroy a phyrric victory just not in english but some strage Greco-celtic dialect ;)
sofar I've somewhat ignored the Parthians as it seems. I'd say Parthian rule over anatolia. and if more, ... well atleast they are not as destructive as their nomadic brothers and carry with them the persian culture. :D thus they would not spur a dark age upon conquering eastern europe.

[Imperator Invictus]

thank you, Ca Putt, your wiew is interesting and more plausible then the ones with Christianity, Muslims in Europe or Celtic unity...
I, at least, found someone imaginative and well documented
...but I challenge you about the evolution of Africa, Spain and Italy, areas dominated by Carthage:
- the remnants will compose the most civilized states?
- could some become republics, with Shofets?
- Could they be mercantile republics(perhaps Lusitanians, because in real time the Portugheze were)?
- Their religion?

[Brennus]

With regards to the Celts being supposedly unable to form unified states are we not forgetting examples like Scotland and Ireland. In the case of Scotland Cinead Mac Alpin managed to unify the Picts, Scots and later Angles and Britons into a Celtic dominated state whilst in Ireland Brian Boru managed to unify the country. In both cases this was without the influence of Rome.

[Imperator Invictus]

I didn't say that the Celts will remain with tribes, of course they will form states, but small states like Scotland, Ireland, Brettonia, Arvernia, Helvetia, not empires

[Cute Wolf]

And here goes my version, yeah, rather than talk about Grandpa's paradox, maybe we could think about Fry's paradox (killed his own "supposed to be" grandpa, and become his own grandpa X) )

0. I assume that Rome will still exist in some time, but the difference starts when the Celtic raids to Roma proceed to exterminate every one of them, so no Rome.... and at later times, the Samnites will dominate and take all Italia.
1. With no regional powers exist to threaten Magna Grecia, Pyrrhos will never go to Taras, and after he was expelled from Syrakousai, he will set himself to the chaotic war of Makedonian succesion earlier... and because of his genetically inscribed bad luck, we can assume that he will try to attack Pella, and get a Phyrric victory there.... and leaving Epeirote military in really bad condition.
2. With Epeirote weakned, Kardechoi will take all Iberia, because no one except Iberians care, and they will just trade and exploit Iberian wealth for quite some time, anbd rebuilding their army for eastern conquest.
3. With the Weakned Epeirote and Makedonia, Koinon Hellenon under the leadership of SPARTAAAA, will proceed to liberate most of Greece.
4. The Ptolies will constantly at war with Seleukeia, and this weakned both of them to some extent, while Baktrians and Pahlava start growing in the east, holding Saka incursions.
5. The Makedonians and Epeirote, frightened by what will Sparta do to them, as they are still weakned in some extent, made alliance each other, and holding the United Greek States' Growth at Thessalia and Thermon. After that tiresome period of Wars, the three factions will be exhausted, and seeking to build rather permanent peace treaty for them, effectively dividing the Peninsulla into 3 Regions, and allied themself to each other (despite some Spartan's displeasure, heck, that was Athenian philloshopers and Rhodian politicians that do the Peace confrence). The northwest and Illyrian lands will be Epeirote suzerainity, the northeast will be Makedon, and the south will be Koinon Hellenon, and they made a promise, if any of them break the treaty, the 2 others will ganged up and smack the violator, in front of Zeus. And that will be signed by Pyrrhos, Antigonos, Areous, and Chremonides. For a long time they will obey the treaty.
6. Pyrrhos will try his fortune on Conquering to the North, he will be on tough fight against the Boii. The boii will fight fiercely to defend themself, but as Sauromatae raids their easternost part, and Getai chipping their southern possesions, Boii will be conquered by the Epeirotes, and Pyrrhos will passed away peacefully because old age... after taking much of central europe.
7. The Makedonians will be stagnant, defending themself against Thracian incursions under Lysimachos, but fight valiantly enough, as Epeirotes and Hellenes will occasionally help them... and will be little changed.
8. The KH on the Other side, will made overseas "Liberation" attempts, and directly invade Italia because the Samnite league start to enroaching Magna Graecia and even defeating Syrakousai... the defeated Syrakousai will cry for help, and after that, what will happened is the Samnite vs KH wars. Because the Samnites didn't have the same commitment as Rome, they will be reluctant to use all their powers, and will be defeated. All that left afterwards will be Federation of Megale Hellas, backed by Sparta and Syrakousai, Holding the Kart- Hadast Enroachment in the East, and they will try to defend Hellenic cities as far as Emporion and Massalia.
9. Basically, Karthadast will reign supreme on Iberia and Northwest Africa, while Koinon reign in Italia, and Southren Gaul for a long time, without Rome, Aedui will be defeated, and Arvernii will rule the rest of Gaul. Sweboz will raid north Italy occasionally, but the Hellenes and Epeirote will be able to check them in place.
10. The Seleukid's Persian possesion will fall to Pahlava, while Saka will trample Baktria and conquer India, but left their Baktrian holdings largely untouched. Ptolemies will claim much of levant, and Seleukid will be mostly on Babylonia and Asia Minor possesion. Pontus take the Cherosonessos, and made themself master of Black Sea, and Hayasdan will be still peaceful Hay Kingdom, uniting all the Hay and keep Sauromatae in Check.
11. And all will be much the same for a long time, as the World balance itself...
12. In the verge of what means the Judean rebellion... the Ptolemies' garrison was expelled from Levant, and a Jewish state was founded.
13. Lacking the Battle of Magnesia, Seleukid manages to endure heavy palace intrique, and after a drastic dynastic changes, they start to reclaim much of their lost lands, and take back Persian lands, beat Pahlava, put baktria back into satrapdom, and Hold most of asia Minor except Pontos, The KH, feels threatened, attack Asia Minor for the fear of Powerful AS, but find themself on the losing ground, soon, the entire KH Makedon, Epeirote alliance fought for their live against Seleukid infasion of Greece, and they failed rather Miserably... AS will take all makedonia, Southeren Epeirotes, and made all hellas client states and divided. Then, they set their eyes toward Syrakousai and Italia, invading them with their massive manpower and take most of their land under submission. Epeirote royal family was saved because they move to Boii lands, and allied themself with the Thracians for the fear of Seleukid Incursions.
14. and feeling threatened, Karthadast attack Italia, but as the Anti Barcid dominate their senate, they will be unwilling a bit, and generally just a minor naval skirmishes occurs. The two empire AS, and karthadast is at war with each other, but they are at stagnant position.
15. and we'll see a big Seleukid Empire, sprawling from Italia, Hellas, Persia, and India... while at the levant, the Judean state will allied themself to Ptolemies out of fear with Seleukid Invasion...
16. And hear Judea allied themself with Ptolies, Seleukid invade them, and put them into the Submission once again, supress them, and Invade the unwary Ptolemy kingdom.
17. And the Seleukeia hegemony grows larger and larger, now defeating Ptolemies and taking entire Egypt as well...
18. And as it had been written before, Jesus was born in Israel... but now, he was born when Antiochus 19 order the census of the entire world.
19. He then teach as what the bible said, and the Pharisee didn't like Him as usual... then, he was captured, and taken to the Satrap of Iudaios, Pharnakes Philatos... and while the Satrap couldn't find anything wrong with him, the pharisee said that he want to be Basileos of the Iudaioi, and for that, the Satrap wash his hands...
20. And then Jesus was crucified, a miracle happened as he passed away, and earthquale, as well as darkness ensues.... a Strategos that was charged to oversee his execution, and seeing all the signs, knelt himself before Jesus, and said "I know that this man was really a Son of God"
21. The Satrap order his men to guard the Jesus' tomb, but on the sunday morning, the Pezhetairos guarding his tomb are shocked to see Jesus was risen with bright light comes from him... because they are not Romaioi who run away... they decide to check what's happened, and found that Jesus was allready risen.... and they seeing him alive, folding his shroud, and they ask.... "Did you really son of God?" and Jesus replies "As You have said..."
22. And then Mary and the women comes, found Jesus was alive and all Pezhetairos that guarding his tomb was knelt before Him... they are so joyful, and spread the word of it, of course, the Pharisee still want to cover the news, but as that news spread, the Satrap personally comes to check if Jesus was really alive or not, and in his way, Jesus suddenly appeared before him, and said that God forgive what he has done before...
23. And in the 40 days, Jesus is going back to heaven....
24. The Christianity spread rather wildly... and in turns, the Arche didn't like what happened, and start to prescute the Christians.... and Christians fled to the west, to the land of Kart-hadast... and still persecuted because they refuse to bow for Baal... of course, the only way left to live peacefully was the Arvernii and Sweboz land, and they go there...
25. A miracle happened, when a Sweboz chieftain fought a dire battle against arvernii force, a cross sign seen in the sky, and in this sign, he got a victory against the Arvernii, of course, that means the Sweboz become Christian, and with God's blessings, they unite all the Northern Europe...
26. Because Christianity never grows much in the east, and grows in Northren Europe instead... there will be No Islam....
27. Sauromatae also got much influence from their Sweboz neighbours, and all the Steppe will become Christian, leaving Hellenic and Kart-Hadast wolrd still in Pagan majority....
28. Because the Steppe tribes become Christian, the Xiongnu become Christian too, and invade China sucessfully, made China the biggest Christian nation on earth, and as the Sweboz in the west was defeated by then Buddhist Hellenic states, the Asia will envolve as Christian lands, and Europe as Buddhist lands.... except the north scandinavians that was still largely Christians...
29. Maya civilization then launched surprise invasion to the Buddhist hellenic Europe....
30. And The Americans start to colonize Europeans, and put the Europeans in their "European Reserve area", taking much of their land... and devastate Hellenic and Kardechoi civilization...
--------

[Fluvius Camillus]

Christianity will not exist because the Parthians will conquer the Seleucid domains and Judea will be an ally or protectorate of Parthians and the Jewish society won’t require a messiah to free them.
Probably the Hasmoneans and the Ptolemeis will remain in power as puppets of Parthians. First, they will require Parthian help against the Seleucids, and later to remain in power. I imagine this because in real history they allied with the Romans against Seleucids, and with no Romans it's naturally they will go tho the Parthians

Maybe John the Baptist and Jesus will manage to reform the Orthodox Judaism but it will be a reformed Judaism (not Christianity), only for Jews. So please try to imagine the historical evolution without Christianity and Islam......
You have Zoroastrianism, Zalmoxianism, Germanic and Celtic Polytheism....etc. so live Christianity and Islam
You could imagine however how the Phenician religion will evolve in South-West, perhaps will evolve in monotheism, with Baal as the only god.

Says who?

Without Magnesia or without Roman intervention when Antiochos IV Epiphanes was at the gates of Alexandreia, the Seleukids were not as weak as they sometimes seem.

Rome would not tolerate a powerful eastern kingdom (Ptollies, Seleukids). Without a supreme power in the west who is policing them, the Seleukids could have had much more and been far more stable (no Rome setting up rival kings for example).

I have no time now to write a full world review, so I'll do that another time, I just wanted to point this out.

~Fluvius

[Imperator Invictus]

Sorry Fluvius Camillus, I haven’t detailed the fall of Seleucids. I agree that the Seleucids will not be conquered only by Parthians, the western possessions will be under Tigranes (as they were) but this time, Armenia will (later) fall to the Parthians, so finally Syria and Anatolia will be Parthian an Zoroastrian. That is why I’ve said that the Parthians will dominate.



And Cute Wolf, we are talking here about alternate history not about the game EB!!!!!!!!!
….so live the !!!Koinon Hellenon!!!! :)) and that Christian fanaticism (And the fact that the Seleucids will adopt the crucification as punishment because they want to respect what you will learn after 2000 years)

LOOOOOL
And the Mayan invasion, and the Christian Huns……and the Sith Empire.......... and Superman who will beat the Mayans....... and the Klingonian Buddhists or Communists or………..

[Duguntz]

anyway cristianism without rome would be a small regional religion and nowaday hippies would sit in tea shops drinking their grass and discussing about cristianityjust like today's hippies sit in tea shops drinking their grass and talking about buddhism and eastern philosophies...

[Hannibal Khan the Great]

anyway cristianism without rome would be a small regional religion and nowaday hippies would sit in tea shops drinking their grass and discussing about cristianityjust like today's hippies sit in tea shops drinking their grass and talking about buddhism and eastern philosophies...

But Buddhism is actually very widespread....

[Duguntz]

compare it to islam or cristianity, the number of worshiper for their respective religion... no, buddism is still marginal in most of the world! I'm not saying it as a buddism basher, I like their philosophy, but it's a fact that not many monk in orange dress walk the streets

[satalexton]

Buddhists don't get enough attention cuz they prefer "getting on with life in a good way".....Either that or the occasional utopian Basileus like Ashoka. Notice how it all falls apart when the saint kicks the bucket.

[Brennus]

Well so far I must commend Plutoboyz (nice map BTW, some of it was lost on me-colour blind-but from what I could see it was lovely), Imperator Invictus and Ca Putt for their theories, although I don't agree with some of your conclusions you have backed them up well and that's what counts.

I must say Cute Wolf's mammoth sized history is also very impressive and (Mayan invasion theory aside, lol nice touch) his idea of a formidable Seleucid Empire acting as a vessel for the spread of Christianity is very clever!

The baloon is still all to play for, but so far gentlemen this has been some first class theory. Thanks to commenting!

[Imperator Invictus]

The World without Rome:

[Ibn-Khaldun]

I don't understand why you people are thinking that American cultures couldn't form some great empires? Have you forgot the Incas and the Aztecs? They are a bit out of the timeframe but I doubt Carthaginians would've sent armies across the ocean to conquer some strange lands. First of all, Europeans only managed to conquer the New World because of their plagues and gunpowder. Civilizations in New World and in the Old World were not that different if we consider the technology. So, it would take a 20000-40000 men to start conquering the America. But considering the amount of money and supplies needed to support that money..
Any empire in the Europe at that time would've been bankrupt very fast! They couldn't support larger armies for a long time in Europe why do you think they could support and army thousands of miles from Europe across the ocean? So, thinking that some Celtic people would colonize the Northern America and Carthaginians would take over Southern America is utopia and fantasy!
There would be contacts of course but no conquests or something like that.

[SwissBarbar]

Carthage would not have conquered anything. They would have founded a great trade-empire, yes, but not an empire like the romans

[Brennus]

The World without Rome:

Nice map, but (forgive me if I am reading this wrong) what makes you think that Germans would have established themselves in Britain? Also your Gothic settlement of North America seems a little questionable- any possible evidence to suggest the Goths could have achieved such gains?


With regards to Ibn-Khaldun, I doubt that Native Americans could have become major powers in Europe mainly becuase of their lack of metallurgical technology. However I agree with you there is no evidence to suggest Carthage would have become the Spanish Empire of an alternative future.

Folks could you simply focus on Eurasia and Africa without theorising what goes on in the New World, please. Any theories of what would happen to America I think have the tendency to become clouded by nationalist feelings e.g. any Welsh forum users will likely colonize the Americas with Celts whilst Polish would probably do the same with Slavs... I only dread to think what Cute Wolf would colonize it with.

[plutoboyz]

The World without Rome:

Phoenician seems too distorted. also why chola is in Indonesia? they in fact never managed to conquer anything here. inflience? yes, conquest? no.
also there is any posibility for Native American to expand.

[Ibn-Khaldun]

@Brennus, I think you misunderstood. I never said that Native Americans would become major powers in Europe. I meant that Europeans were not that technologically superior over the Americans. If there would've been some trading between the Native Americans and Europeans then most likely the former would have learned how to make iron etc and the difference between the two worlds would've become even smaller.

[Brennus]

@ Ibn-Khaldun I do apologise, i see what you mean now. Yes your quite right cross-Atlantic trading links could have enabled Native Americans to have developed a level of technology on par with Europe. Thinking about it now the Vinland settlement did not enjoy any great technological advantage of the native neighbours, and the massive Spanish gains can be attributed to sheer good luck on Spain's part.

And thats the last I am saying on America or I will be a hypocrite, now, back to Eurasia!

[plutoboyz]

@Brennus, I think you misunderstood. I never said that Native Americans would become major powers in Europe. I meant that Europeans were not that technologically superior over the Americans. If there would've been some trading between the Native Americans and Europeans then most likely the former would have learned how to make iron etc and the difference between the two worlds would've become even smaller.

Maybe in late medieval times, some Polynesian encounter american and boom! American Have army polynesian have navy. if they not at war of course.

[Cute Wolf]

and yes, if without Rome, means no Islam, then Majapahit empire will conquer All asia....... HAHAHAHAAHAH

[plutoboyz]

and yes, if without Rome, means no Islam, then Majapahit empire will conquer All asia....... HAHAHAHAAHAH

but will never whole Java! hahahhahaha....