SPQR? Who?

**Apázlinemjó** · 04-21-2010, 18:02

Originally Posted by antisocialmunky

I wonder if capitalism and humanism would have developed? Or would it have taken a different shape or would we have stayed in a preindustrial cycle of fedual state -> centralized state and back and forth.

Without Rome, we would live on space stations already.

**oudysseos** · 04-21-2010, 18:52

The answer to what the world would have been like without the Roman Empire depends entirely on the reason why there would not have been a Roman Empire in the first place.

There are a couple of plausible scenarios.

1. Brennus burns Rome and kills every last man woman and child, sows the fields with salt, and eats all the dogs. After that it's hard to say: the urban societies of the Etruscans were already somewhat in decline by this point, and I can't buy a Samnite or Sabine empire. Possibly without a strong Italian power, Greek influence would have spread up the peninsula.

2. Alexander didn't die in 323 BC, but lived at least another 20 years, and carried out what were reputed to have been his plans for western conquests against Carthage and Sicily. I find it likely that he would have been drawn into the Italian peninsula, and given for the sake of argument that he would have won, that's Rome nipped in the bud. After that, what happens depends on whether Alex ever stopped to consolidate his empire and provide for an orderly succession - assuming that he left an adult male heir, we can posit an Alexandrine Empire lasting for a while, I think. Longer if the Greeks adopted some Roman civic virtues. This scenario is put forward in Mary Renault's The Nature of Alexander the Great.

The successful conquest of Rome by Phyrrus is an alternate version of this scenario, with smaller results - Phyrrus conquers Italy, Sicily and Greece.

3. Rome loses to Carthage in either of the wars. I can't bring myself to believe that Carthage would have eradicated Rome or replaced the population, so the eventual outcome of this is harder to imagine - it possibly might have just meant a delay in events, or a later repeat of scenario #1 - no strong regional power in Italy.

While I would never say that history is inevitable, there are important reasons why Rome succeeded and Carthage, the Greeks and the Celts did not - and just removing Rome via deus ex machina wouldn't necessarily change those conditions. The Greeks had much more conservative and parochial notions of citizenship than the Romans did (as did the Carthaginians), something that limited the ability of both to sustain expansion over time. Geographical position is also very important.

**Brennus** · 04-21-2010, 22:48

THAT'S IT! The time on my laptop has just gone 10:40 as I start writing this so I will announce who (in my opinion) has won them self a balloon. I have based my decision on who presented the most logical argument which included as many cultures as possible:

1. Plutoboyz for his convincing map (even if Carthage's importance was emphasized possibly too much) and for his constant input during this discussion. Please accept a balloon.
2. Imperator Invictus.
3. Cute Wolf
4. Ca Putt
5. Oudysseos (did not actually present an alternate future but instead gave the most interesting answer in my opinion).

I would like to thank everyone who participated in the discussions including those not in the top five. In particular i would like to thank Wathcman, Andronikos, Duguntz, Ibn Khaldin and Hannibal Khan the Great as well for educational input. I hope you enjoyed this thread. Thank you all again!

**Ibn-Khaldun** · 04-21-2010, 23:11

Hmm... I am Ibn-Khaldun not Ibn Khaldin! Thank you very much.

But this is a nice topic that people can talk about hours and hours.

**Brennus** · 04-21-2010, 23:45

Originally Posted by Ibn-Khaldun

Hmm... I am Ibn-Khaldun not Ibn Khaldin! Thank you very much.

But this is a nice topic that people can talk about hours and hours.

I do apologise, sir. I only got out of work a few minutes before writing that.

Well I am happy to let this thread stay open for discussion if people still want to discuss it. I only put in the baloon to attract interest.

**Duguntz** · 04-22-2010, 06:53

Thanks for opening that thread at first Brennus!

**plutoboyz** · 04-22-2010, 09:39

Originally Posted by Brennus

THAT'S IT! The time on my laptop has just gone 10:40 as I start writing this so I will announce who (in my opinion) has won them self a balloon. I have based my decision on who presented the most logical argument which included as many cultures as possible:

1. Plutoboyz for his convincing map (even if Carthage's importance was emphasized possibly too much) and for his constant input during this discussion. Please accept a balloon.
2. Imperator Invictus.
3. Cute Wolf
4. Ca Putt
5. Oudysseos (did not actually present an alternate future but instead gave the most interesting answer in my opinion).

I would like to thank everyone who participated in the discussions including those not in the top five. In particular i would like to thank Wathcman, Andronikos, Duguntz, Ibn Khaldin and Hannibal Khan the Great as well for educational input. I hope you enjoyed this thread. Thank you all again!

thank you for the baloon. I'm honored. I'll put it in my sig