Celtic levies

[Foot]

I tried to find this subject using search but have failed to find it, so if this is a repeat I apologize.

I thought I read somewhere on this forum that the "Celtic levies" were going to start of strong then gradually weaken as the decades go by, is this so?
If this is so what sources is this based on? Caesar, others? Thanks for any information on this, and again if this is a repeat I'm sorry for bringing it up again.

I can't remember that at all. It sounds impossible though. We cannot change stats, midgame. Certainly low-strata troops will become less numerous (through recruitment mechanism), as they are replaced by semi-professional middle-class.

Foot

[Cute Wolf]

I can't remember that at all. It sounds impossible though. We cannot change stats, midgame. Certainly low-strata troops will become less numerous (through recruitment mechanism), as they are replaced by semi-professional middle-class.

Foot

maybe you can give them 2 chevroned recruitment at the start, tone down to 1 experience in the middle of the game, and 0 exp in later era.... and M2TW can handle recruitment by specific time....

[Frostwulf]

I can't remember that at all. It sounds impossible though. We cannot change stats, midgame. Certainly low-strata troops will become less numerous (through recruitment mechanism), as they are replaced by semi-professional middle-class.

It seems you as well as Andy1984 seems to have answered my question(though my question was poorly worded).

I believe the rationale behind this would be the gradual professionalization of the celtic military: instead of levied bands, one would see more and more professional full-time soldiers recruited from strata above the ones the levies would be recruited from. As a result, those levies would see less conflicts and therefore be less experienced.

While I see the sense in this, I'm not sure I agree with it. Thanks for the responses!

[Foot]

It seems you as well as Andy1984 seems to have answered my question(though my question was poorly worded).
While I see the sense in this, I'm not sure I agree with it. Thanks for the responses!

There is no indication by the team that Andy1984's response is in anyway shared by the team. As far as I'm aware we have never stated that there will be a change in the strength of any troops. Apart from experience chevrons (the use of which is somewhat questionable in that fashion) there is no method to do this, anyhow. However, I do know that recruitment will change over the different eras for the celts to reflect changes in their society.

Foot

[Cyclops]

I like the idea of changes being modelled by the relative strength of old and newer units and their refresh rates.

This will tie in nicely with the possiblity that militia troops will disband reguklarly (ie go back to bring in the harvest or whatever), keeping experience down for the non-professional units.

There's another side of the disbanded militia funtion (if it comes in), which is that the team could fit in an "insurrectio " type script where a force of militia spawns when a home province is invaded:those troops would then disband alnong with the other militias so you wouldn't get the hydra effect ("Oh I crossed the border into Latium three times and they raised a gazillion troops in response...and now they're blitzing the map").

[geala]

The better or "elite" units formed always only a small part of Celtic or Germanic armies. There is no reason to presume that levies were better trained in the early times and later not so. They would not have had become obsolete only because a little bit more better troops became available. So I think the mechanism of EB (and EB II?) that later on more better troops become trainable is enough. The levies so become relatively worse, not absolutely.

[Power2the1]

Expanding on that:

In 272 B.C. the Celts had just ended their great migratory period over Europe. The size of the armies was composed of overwhelming amounts of levies, led by the professionals. After this period, large scale militaristic migrations are not the norm, and everyone settles down a bit to enjoy their gains. Overtime the military tradition among the average Gaul decreased as the nobles and other leading men consolidated this for themselves and their own retinue of vassals, or 'slaves'. Perhaps the levies in the earlier 279 B.C. migration period have more exposure to warfare and campaigning, and might have had an edge on their 50 B.C. levy, but rigorous training, overall, doesn't seem to have been common for either era in wartime. For one there are big differences in the society between the two timeframes.

First, 272 B.C. era Gaul was not on the same level of agricultural advancement as 50's B.C. era Gaul. The Celts were typically the most advanced metalworkers and agriculturalists for their time. The iron boom in the La Tene world occurred around 200 B.C., when metal weapons, tools, farming instruments, etc... began showing up all over the place, although Britain wasn't affected by this boom. This increased availability and use of metal provides for more farmland and varied industry which, of course, needs increasingly more manpower to expand and take advantage of this. Warriors of course got a boost in their equipment with more long lasting available weapons, helmets, and the like. Despite all these advantages in the culture, the warriors classes were not really expanding too far outside their own locations after the 279 B.C. migration era, and their focus was no longer external in finding new lands to conquer, but mainly internal by waging warfare against their fellow Celt. Obviously since the professionals in a Celtic army were not huge to begin with, the need to maintain a great number of standing warriors probably was not as needed in the post migration period, especially as you were not continually facing huge numbers of opponents. Basically one needs a larger group of warriors when expanding your territory and gaining new lands, but when this expansion ceases, then the need for great numbers of warriors decreases as well, and this is the overall gist of the situation.

XIII.—Throughout all Gaul there are two orders of those men who are of any rank and dignity: for the commonality is held almost in the condition of slaves, and dares to undertake nothing of itself and is admitted to no deliberation. The greater part, when they are pressed either by debt, or the large amount of their tributes, or the oppression of the more powerful, give themselves up in vassalage to the nobles, who possess over them the same rights without exception as masters over their slaves. But of these two orders, one is that of the Druids, the other that of the knights...

XV.—The other order is that of the knights. These, when there is occasion and any war occurs (which before Caesar's arrival was for the most part wont to happen every year, as either they on their part were inflicting injuries or repelling those which others inflicted on them), are all engaged in war. And those of them most distinguished by birth and resources, have the greatest number of vassals and dependants about them. They acknowledge this sort of influence and power only.

One should note the the slaves in Gallic society had rights, but Roman and Spartan slaves possessed the opposite. It depends on the culture apparently with Northern Europeans valuing their slaves, and most Mediterranean cultures abusing them. The Irish writings on 'slavery' and vassals were humanely treated, with big penalties if one mistreated a slave without cause. What Caesar says about Gallic slaves in those passages is true to a point. Celtic tradition gave slaves rights as brought out in the Irish law books, make no mistake about that. For example slaves, vassals, and the like would accompany their master and be sent off on certain duties and tasks and the like (think along the lines similar to the inferior position of the charioteer, Laeg, to the leadership of Cu Chulain). They be given gifts and positions of authority. Assuming that the "greater part" of the slaves, as Caesar mentioned, some of the indebted men showed skill in warfare (its prestigious to have the best and most numerous warriors alongside you, such as Orgetorix's 10,000 vassals) then they'd too go to war alongside their masters when the time came, as was the norm in those times, the Dark Ages, and the Medieval era when one of rank and position would bring his own armed retinue to battle. Celtic champions and nobles on each side would duel among themselves, with their retinue cheering them on. Should one side get the worse of it all, then the opposing retinues could be overcome by their rage and join in the fight if the druids or other judges (like referees) could not control them.

Only when larger threats loomed, such as the Roman invasion of Gaul, would levies be assembled from the mass of farmers and craftsmen other general non combatants of the tribe or state. Their role was to form into each mans tribal contingent, and from there to 'hold the line'. Meanwhile the Gallic nobility, the knights, sought to turn the battle on horseback, most likely by routing the opponents own cavalry and chasing them off, and closing in for the kill against the remaining infantry, thus gaining the fame for themselves. A vicious never ending cycle of warfare that escalated among the Aeduoi and Aruernoi. This post was meant to be this long lol...

In EB2, given the restrictions of the game, we'll try to get close to this overall situation.