Celtic levies

[moonburn]

as anyone considered that perhaps the levies were worse not because they where trully worse but because they where facing better troops and thus seem worse in comparison to previous victories where they had faced half ragged hoplities romanoi ?

i mean if they are facing better and more organised armies then ofc they will fare worse then their ancestors who had faced "worse" soldiers

[Frostwulf]

Definitly NO. Of course we dont know anything about the celtish society and rankings in 270bc.(As far as I know you have only archaelocigal evidence from that time) But there is the probability, that the gauls in the early EB Timeframe were a society based on freeman. The gauls in 50bc. had a two (Or maybe three, if counting the religious druid class) class society, with the majority of the gauls beeing dependent farmers or even slaves.

Posidonius,Polybius,Dio,are off the top of my head but there are others. Early "Celtic" society still had elites and just about the only difference from 270's until Caesar shows up was the transition to statehood(still in dispute I believe). The farmers/craftsmen were not slaves, they had rights even if they gave themselves up for clientage. Power2the1 will have the much more detailed information.

Also the fighting spirit is hard to compare to earlier times, because we do not know too much, but still: It is military common sense, that free man fight with higher moral, than people forced to fight by their leaders. Also the gaul warrior class wouldnt have any power, if the normal levies and slave had military training.

As pointed out above they were the same social status. When Caesar went into Gaul there were plenty of the farmers/craftsmen who volunteered to fight against the Romans. Vercingetorix mostly recruited from the lower end folk and with these he forced many nobles to capitulate.

as anyone considered that perhaps the levies were worse not because they where trully worse but because they where facing better troops and thus seem worse in comparison to previous victories where they had faced half ragged hoplities romanoi ?

i mean if they are facing better and more organised armies then ofc they will fare worse then their ancestors who had faced "worse" soldiers

Yes in some other threads further back this was brought up, the difference of the conscript/militia compared to the drilled/trained professional armies of Caesar.

[Power2the1]

The differences concerning the free men compared to their vassalized kin in battle are twofold at his point:

Morale and Spirit
The free men will have a bit better morale than those who are vassalized. Think volunteers vs. draftees. Typically an all volunteer group, fighting with their own free will and determination will have some amount of greater drive then those who are forced into fighting and perhaps do not wish to take up arms, but must.

Panoply and Arms
A retinue of warriors, led by their own chief or king, would be outfitted with spoils of war, gifts of arms and armors for their service, and others necessities of war. The vassal units will have a greater propensity for damage and attack, as their gear is, overall, more standardized and in greater amounts. The free warriors, on the other hand, must attain their panoply through personal wealth and personal spoils of war,

Recruitment and Numbers
The free class warriors do not have the numerical advantage or availability when going to war. The chief's retinue is there to fight, protect, and serve. These are year long troops, or house troops, on the state's payroll. The free man fights when he wishes, but also has to attend to farms or other domestic activity. The vassals are numerous in the later reforms simulating the rise of their class throughout the Celtic society, while the free class shrinks over the reforms with their recruitment and availability diminishes in response to the growing vassal class. The vassals are available year long, while the free class is only available in certain seasons, again to simulate returning home to share in farming, sowing, harvesting, trade, etc.


This arrangement allows/forces the player to use a bit of tactical planning when preparing a campaign. Both troop types can be used and both have their advantages when you fight a strong opponent. A decision need to be made between superior attacking power and damage, vs. staying power and superior morale. Obviously the elites combine both, but they will have restricted availability. Hopefully should a battle go badly for the A.I. or the player, one will see the vassals break and run before the free warriors will in similar situations.