Multiplayer Disappointment

[Koga No Goshi]

I am a little bit of a Japanese history buff, and I see the history buffs have taken some flak in other posts, but I'm not here to say the game should be changed to fit history or anything. Here's the prob. In multiplayer, which I've been into for four days now, with only a few noticeable exceptions all the battles have been:

2-8 lines of musketeers
4-12 units of Warrior monks behind them.

Now, this was fun the first few times playing that warrior monk muskets-in-the-rain scenario in SP but it just gets old in MP. The tactics really don't change much, unless the attacker picks rainy weather, which I never see anyone do. (In fact out of five games I entered where rain was the only option, at least one person dropped the game immediately). Now ok, before you all attack, I know there are exceptions based on geography and such. There are a couple of games my archers kicked the crap out of musketeers or I won without monks or musketeers at all. But particularly fighting "better" players or players in the same clan, it's same old same old. Musket lineup with as many monks as there is koku for behind them. What happens is longrange exchange of fire, then monk rush. Doesn't this get old to anyone?

Another question. Anyone notice that even with units protecting the flanks, heavy cavalry seem to rout ULTRA easy? I've had 60 Heavy Cavalry fighting with a friendly unit on either side rout at 58, no general death.



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Goshi of Koga

[Dark Phoenix]

Well I feel the same way as you. I hadnt played Shogun online for 2 months and you come back and every second game is like this. It is not fun at all and when I get on a run of these games it gets really annoying.

With your Heavy Cav problem were there many gun units firing on them at the time and what was the morale of the units on the flanks.

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DoragonPhoenix of the Clan Doragon

[Vanya]

The solution is simple: just play anybody. On occasion you will come across a great player, or one that uses the above tactic. But most times, you will find those that do not adhere to this norm.

Or, try more 2v2 or higher battles, as the dynamics of allied armies often mutes this mostly 1v1 phenomenon. I dont argue that folks could get this same army in 2v2 or higher... but often you find players that play in such a way that their armies complement each others instead of being clones of each other (at least in those that play together often).

But dont be discouraged... in 2 weeks, the Sea of Sohei will dissipate before the hooves of a new invader...!

[Asakura Lord]

I feel the same way. I just started playing online recently and half of my battles were like this. I try and have a good mix of units, and use some strategy and tactics. But it's kind of hard when they just shoot, and charge with their monks. It gets old real quick.

[theforce]

It ain't bad as facing 16 monks in a rainy day in green :P

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Don't use only honour, use theforce, too.
http://darksideclan.fateback.com
Enter the Darkside...

[Obake]

Koga,

Once you start playing many of the more senior players, you will find that most of them use a balanced army rather than the simple monk/musket combo. In fact, most of those same senior players will wipe the combo users right off the field with little effort!

Why you may ask? Because of the flexibility a balanced army offers. What better way to take out large groups of monks than by using Yari Sam or Naginata on hold position/formation to keep them in place while you flank them with your own few units of monks and NoDachi. And I'm sure that just about everybody has at some point suffered the rout of their muskets due to a flank attack by lightning fast Cav units! (and no I'm not referring to the Cav rout tactic)

If you take a look at the true top 100 rather than the top 100 based on honor, I seriously doubt that you would see a single one who uses the gun overload/rush tactic solely.

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Obake

I warned you, but did you listen? Ohh, no...it's just a harmless little bunny, isn't it?

[Dark Phoenix]

Koga if you ever see a player with Doragon at the start of there name they will not use this tactic or any of the major clans for that matter.

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DoragonPhoenix of the Clan Doragon

[Koga No Goshi]

Thanks for your posts guys, I haven't been playing long so I will keep at it and hope to run into more of what you've been mentioning. Me and two other fairly new guys had been playing with the standard archers/yari/some cavalry with just a few units of monks/nodachi and had basically been routed off the field everytime. I'm surprised how much multiplayer tactics change from single player (don't know about you guys, but I rarely ever saw the computer use muskets at all). I've played Shogun for over a year in SP and thought of myself as pretty good till I tried MP lol.

[Asakura Lord]

Quote Originally posted by Koga No Goshi:
Thanks for your posts guys, I haven't been playing long so I will keep at it and hope to run into more of what you've been mentioning. Me and two other fairly new guys had been playing with the standard archers/yari/some cavalry with just a few units of monks/nodachi and had basically been routed off the field everytime. I'm surprised how much multiplayer tactics change from single player (don't know about you guys, but I rarely ever saw the computer use muskets at all). I've played Shogun for over a year in SP and thought of myself as pretty good till I tried MP lol.

[/QUOTE]

I just started playing online as well, I noticed a big difference in the tactics. I have so far lost all but one of my battle, and I to thought I was pretty good in SP, but I'm getting better with each battle.

[Chirotera]

Koga, and others,

I never had the luxury of thinking I was good in single player, hehe... I jumped right to online play. Either way, I try to stray from the monk/musket combo as much as possible. If I had my choice, I would bring no muskets, (I'm an archer buff) and probably a max of 2 monks. Unfourtunetly, Horses against Tanks didn't seem to work for the Russians. I have taken note of this, and have extended my army to include 3 muskets (no more than 3) and at least 3 monks (usually no more than 3), in an attempt to stay competitive with most other players. I am praying that the expansion will other other units than Monks that will want to be used, and that they tweak the muskets more so they can kill as many as your own men in friendly fire, as they do the enemy. In any case, stick to it, and for the record, I will be more than willing to fight in a no-musket, few monks battle... . Just look for me online as....

Amatsu

[evilc]

i only play 1k games now cos of those monk battles, anyway just shoot at them, and you'll have more men so flank them

1k games rock, they're over in 10 mins and no monk rushers, anyone who tries it ends up in a bloody heap at my feet

of course, you might get ashigaru rusher, but they run like flies if you concentrate on 1 unit with 2/3 of yours.

[Asakura Lord]

that's the easiest way to take the numbers of the monks down, using archers on them. I send in a unit or two of cav archers and bring their numbers down.

[Yoko Kono]

The most effective way to deal with monk-musk armies is to bring cav
A 5k army with 2 yari cav, 2 cav arch and 1 heavy cav will wipe the smiles off these combo players
They simply will not have the yari to cope with ur cav AND ur own compliment of 3-4 guns, a few YS and some shock troops
Many players seem to neglect the benefits of cav and fail to realize how effective they can be when utilized properly
A well timed charge with Yari cav can give a charge bonus of up to +20 and can often turn the tide of battle in an apparently hopeless situation

[shingenmitch2]

KOGA -- You will always find monk rushers, but if you play battles at 5000 koku or there abouts, the games will always be more fun. Ballanced armies work best at this amount and monk rushers can almost always be defeated.

Muskets are used more in multiplayer than by the computer in Campaign because there is no "Tech Tree" It takes a long time and investment to get muskets in the campaingn. In multiplayer it's only 175! (for Honor2). I agree as well that monks are a bit unbalanced in the game as a whole, But play battles at 5k and a good army will not be more than 5-6 monks or 4-5 muskets.

[Asakura Lord]

I agree the right use and placement of cav can do some serious damage to your opponent, especially if you attack from their side or rear.

Also why do some people have battles with over 10,000 koku? that would just seem a little to much.

[Dunhill]

You can at times ask players for musk monk limits, usually only in friendlies though.

However, the advice to include cavalry, and have a mixed army does seem to work. I hardly ever bring more than 2 monks 2 musk and 2 NDs. This seems to work well enough, but I can have problems when facing an all-out rush from an army of 16 NDs, or the musk monk line-up when used by a pro.

However, I don't see many rushers in the Honour society, and I would suggest you get the list of these players and learn some of thier names. I now make it common practice to have a look at the list and make player choices accordingly.

Cheers, and if I see you online, I'll play comps with musk/monk limits, whatever you want.

[Koga No Goshi]

I'm starting to be able to counter the musket/monk army strategy a bit better, thanks to a lot of the advice here. I'm also starting to see the truth in what someone said earlier that perhaps the better players don't use musket/monk armies so much. I say that because really I don't see much strategy to what the musket/monk guys do. They move the muskets in line, let them decimate the enemy missle troops, and then make a general monk charge all across the line. The guys who work with yari samurai with any combination of a few cavalry, shock troops, etc., are a lot tricker I'm noticing. Tonight I beat a musket/monk rush with an equal amount of yari samurai to his monks, with +1 honor to each with the extra money, and some archers. When the monks came, the yari samurai behind the archers hit 'em face to face in hold formation while two yari samurai on each flank moved around and slammed in. Worked well. Thanks for the advice guys.

However, even if this strategy isn't "invincible" (the musket-monk thing I mean) I still look forward to finding people to play with who won't make me have to counter it every game. Variety is good.




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Goshi of Koga

[Vanya]

Quote Originally posted by Koga No Goshi:
...I rarely ever saw the computer use muskets at all...[/QUOTE]

I've had to face an Oda army that had (yikes!) 7 arquebusiers and 1 musketeer, plus a mix of other assorted troops... A real bummer when they attack you on a clear day and you have no guns of your own 'cause you bitch-slapped the Portuguese fella and you have mostly peasant rabble to man the defenses!

It has happened to me... Oda seems pretty fond of the papist yoke... I rarely seen a different clan field guns in SP...

[Yoko Kono]

I have never seen the computer field christian guns ever in SP
I have seen guns only very rarely, dutch guns, but usually my games end around the time the dutch arrive so i am always the only christian shooting my way across japan

I have seen Takeda and Oda go christian a few times but they never seemed to build trading posts so had no guns, perhaps a future patch could make guns more appealing to the AI

[BlackWatch McKenna]

Look for old blackwatch on line.

We dont use monks or muskets and we play the low koku games.

Likewise, we dont use "attacker" or "defender". We usually play on a map with a village and use the Last Man Standing rules.

Boy, talk about mental exercises !

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// Black
// "Did we win?"

[evilc]

low koku rules, less monks, more tactics

[Koga No Goshi]

Quote Originally posted by evilc:
low koku rules, less monks, more tactics[/QUOTE]

The lower the koku, the more guns. Since gunpowder and shot was very very expensive in this period in Japan, combined with the fact that muskets have the capacity to rout any unit including monks and heavy cav, I think the price should be upp'd. As it is, in large koku games there's more than enough money to throw some high honor muskets in, and in low koku games, it's one of the most affordable units. Sometimes ya can't win. Unless you choose rain. hehe.



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Goshi of Koga

[Koga No Goshi]

Can anyone recommend a good strategy for breaking through a musket line with monks behind it, maybe some yari too? Sometimes it's harder in 2v2 because if both defenders (or attackers) consolidate their monks and musket lines, it's hard to flank and you can't do much but hit head on. I can charge into the musket line I suppose, cav would just rout and if I do it with all my assault troops what happens is if they don't rout, they're tied up fighting the muskets and/or the archers or yari samurai right behind them while the monks surge forward and have the freedom to hit flanks, rears, etc. Anyone recommend anything for this type of setup?



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Goshi of Koga

[DarkSword]

hehehe...koga m8,

I think this is what we are all looking for but to find out a way to beat them, i think you should keep playing and vary your tactics until you find something that works....people have different styles
one army is good for one person doesn't mean it will work for the other....goodluck Paul!!!!

[Koga No Goshi]

Hey "DarkSword", you demented Ashigaru, don't forget I can still rout your senior butt! Except when Rathan's on your team, hehe.




>

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Goshi of Koga

[evilc]

if the other player has loads of muskets on a low koku game, thats better than them having loads of monks.

muskets are not exactly a problem, they are simply the worst h-2-h unit, all you have to do is get near to them.

if i play against an army of maybe half muskets, i kill the h-2-h units (there would have to be less of them) then i turn on the muskets and they run like i was chasing them myself

[This message has been edited by evilc (edited 06-17-2001).]

[NagaoKagetora]

hey Koga!!
when i come up against a long line of musks i am often daunted by the sight! but i remind myself that musks are basically Ashigaru!! Therefore i sometimes try to concentrate my own missle fire on one particular enemy musk unit! Thus that has a nasty effect on that units morale and consequently the rest of his fellow gunweilding peasants! Good flanking manovers at this point can often lead to the entire line turning heal and running.

KenchiKagetora

[evilc]

as i always say, musket men are pants, they die easily, no-one should be scared of musket men if their force is balanced

[Kraellin]

koga,

might i suggest the use of the custom games in single player. the ai wont give you as good a fight as us human types, but it can be a decent teaching aide at times for things like you're talking about.

play as the defender so that you can deploy as you would in a multi game and give your enemy a monk/gun army and experiment. then turn it around and give yourself one. seeing things from both sides can be a great help in figuring out how to manage any unit type or army configuration.

the true test is of course multi. find a friend who is willing to play you friendlies and willing to experiment with you. play attacker and defender in the same manner as above.

K.

[Koga No Goshi]

I actually have been experimenting a great deal in multiplayer to come up with a good anti-musket/monk(or nodachi) army counter, and have had some successes. I've also just come up with a good way in low koku games of eliminating his muskets from the picture and keeping mine in. Provided, of course, he doesn't have 8 muskets and only 2 or so hth units. But that wouldn't be as hard anyway.



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Goshi of Koga