So, I am the only one thinking things are going downhill in Europe?

[Meneldil]

I'm opening this topic not because I've read some article, or seen something on TV, but as a result of some thoughts I've had lately, related to personal experiences. If you can't be bothered learning more about my life, just skip to the end part I guess. And sorry for the racist tone to my topic, if it does not respect the rules of the org, feel free to delete it.

I just had a talk with my little bro, about what he does in high school, his friends and what not. At first, we were simply discussing how his high-school has changed since I've been there, how are some profs doing, etc.. But quickly, the topic moved onto racial (or ethnical, as us french don't like the idea of race) tensions in said high-school. And it kind of shocked me to learn that most of my bro's friends are slowly becoming racists. They consider most arabs to be scums, thieves and generally, big vulgarisms. And so does my bro.

Now, I don't know how things were when you were 14-18 (my bro is 18), but back when I was young, racism was a big taboo among me and my friends. An oftenly-used insult was "facho" (a slang word for fascist). Sure, we all had our occasional problems/fights with some arab scum, but that was about it. We considered it was part of life and mostly got over it. When Le Pen (far right leader) made it to the second turn of the Presidential election, we all took the street, and shown our support to the black and brown population. My family encouraged me to do so. And proud we were, manifesting in support of freedom, tolerance and whatever. I remember some old arab shopkeeper who offered us free drinks during the protest. Poor guy was almost crying, and I was moved by him.

Nowadays, (almost ten years later) when I meet the same old friends, (some of them are still leftist hippies by all standards) racist jokes fly around, and even though we generally avoid the topic, we know we don't really hold arabs in our hearths.
Nowadays, my mum (socialist) who back then praised me when I protested against Le Pen call arabs with bad names and hate them with a passion.
Nowadays, my dad, who'd like to be a respectable, politically correct UMP-voter (right) often makes racist jokes too, and keep repeating "things are going to end badly".

We are all ashamed about it, but we all are racist of some sort. Whenever I get called names, whenever some guy tries to piss me off or to fight with me, sad to say, it's an arab. Whenever I see some macho-man scumbag calling girls 'sluts' in the street, it's an arab. Whenever I see a mean scum, it's an arab. And whenever I see an arab who doesn't look like and behave like a scum of earth or a religious nutjob, saddly, my first thought is "Wow, an arab who looks like you can have a civilized talk with him, crazy!".
I keep telling to myself "those are a minority, you can't blame all of them for the behavior of these ***holes". But I know it's pretty much useless. I don't have faith anymore.

I still get mad with some openly racist people I know (grandparents or what not), telling them the very same argument, but I don't believe it anymore. If I'd see that old arab shopkeeper again, I'd probably think "Meh, too bad for him, but he should have taught his kids to behave". I don't think I have an irrational hatred for colored people, as my two best girl-friends are respectively from Tahiti and Tunisia, but still.

It's quite telling that my Canadian girlfriend, who has lived in France for almost three months, thinks most arab youth in France are horrid scums (note that during these three months she had her share of issues with them). When she makes a comment about it, I don't know whether I should agree with her or stay politically correct and temper her thoughts with the same old "they're not all like this" argument. And you can't really accuse her of being a white racist imperialist scumbag either, as she's 3/4 native and kind of brown too.

And this feeling is pretty widely shared as far as I can tell. I still know some people who go on ranting about how France is a fascist country, about how immigrants are oppressed and victims of racism daily, about how the cops are responsible for every outburst of violence, but they're a tiny minority. The rest of the people balance between a politely (or cowardly) hidden angerness and open hatred.

My fear is that this rise of racism, which seems to not be restricted to France (one just has to see what's going on in Italy, Belgium, Spain, Switzerland or Germany) is the result of a mix of state propaganda and societal trend caused by economic and political uncertainties. What if things weren't really worse now than they used to be in the past? What if my shameful feelings aren't caused by rational thinking, but by some insidious brainwashing? What if I'm only not reminding the cases where a white scum pissed me or someone else off? I genuinely can't think of such an event happening in the last five years, but heh.

As I type this, I don't really know what the purpose of this thread is. Maybe it's some kind of cry for help: "Help me, I'm becoming racist". Or maybe I just wanted to express my feelings regarding a scary and disturbing evolution of our society and of myself.

[Strike For The South]

Wahh Wahh The brown people are here and they are scary wahh wahh

If they are scum let them be scum and if they impede your daily life pop them in the nose.

[Beskar]

Well, I don't agree. Infact, it would be hard for me to agree.

I am from a basically "all-white" part of England. So the vast majority of people I know are indeed "white". However, all the 'foriengers' including arab-looking people, are all either Health Professionals (Doctors, Nurses, etc) which I know from work, or University Students which I know from University.

The thing is, they are basically all very nice people. I get on great with them with no issues at all. All the colours of the rainbow, I know people from Singapore, South Africa, India, Pakistan, Caribean, America, South America, China, Europe, etc etc.

On the otherhand, there are the "white-English" I know... loud bad mouthed drunks, fighting eachother outside of night clubs, sexual harrasment akin to what you said being done, not all of them are chavs either, as those are generally around the council states, the average one is pretty much like that. The women have people like "Jordan" as their idol, who pretty much are just like what you said that arab man says. It is a disgusting horrid pit of moral perversion. Obviously, not everyone like this, as you say yourself, but I would argue the ones not like that are a minority.

So on one-hand, there is this nice well-mannered Arabian health professional/student (male or female) compared to the average "white-English" duct-tape dressed female who's version of manners is burping after taking a swig of laeger or male who thinks chat-up lines akin to "do you have a mirror in your [female undergarments]? I can see myself in there" is civilised behaviour.

So I don't think it is anything to do with genes or race.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Well, I don't agree. Infact, it would be hard for me to agree.

I am from a basically "all-white" part of England. So the vast majority of people I know are indeed "white". However, all the 'foriengers' including arab-looking people, are all either Health Professionals (Doctors, Nurses, etc) which I know from work, or University Students which I know from University.

The thing is, they are basically all very nice people. I get on great with them with no issues at all. All the colours of the rainbow, I know people from Singapore, South Africa, India, Pakistan, Caribean, America, South America, China, Europe, etc etc.

On the otherhand, there are the "white-English" I know... loud bad mouthed drunks, fighting eachother outside of night clubs, sexual harrasment akin to what you said being done, not all of them are chavs either, as those are generally around the council states, the average one is pretty much like that. The women have people like "Jordan" as their idol, who pretty much are just like what you said that arab man says. It is a disgusting horrid pit of moral perversion. Obviously, not everyone like this, as you say yourself, but I would argue the ones not like that are a minority.

So on one-hand, there is this nice well-mannered Arabian health professional/student (male or female) compared to the average "white-English" duct-tape dressed female who's version of manners is burping after taking a swig of laeger or male who thinks chat-up lines akin to "do you have a mirror in your [female undergarments]? I can see myself in there" is civilised behaviour.

So I don't think it is anything to do with genes or race.

Where abouts are you Beskar, in the North of England, I think?

In the South West the situation in much more like what Melendil describes, though not as extreme. I live (as EVERYBODY should know by now) in the Cathedral City of Exeter. This is a (relatively) wealthy and peaceful city, it is also a city housing an excellent university whose students make up around 10% of the population.

We have three social problems of varying severity:

Chavs

Arab Muslims from rich backgrounds

Fundamentalist Christians

More or less in that order. Of the three, the Christians are really only a problem for other Christians, and mostly on an individual harrassment basis. The Chavs are the cause of several rapes and violent attacks each year, mostly of 18 year old female students who walk down dark alleys because they think they are safe in the city. The Arabs are just an almighty nusience, they drink and smoke huge amounts of hash, play music at all hours and have disgusting personal habits. They also trwat white women as whores or servants.

I was unfortunate enough to have to live with one one year, after about 5 months of complaining the university kicked him out of Halls. His room had to be deep cleaned, to the tune of several hundred pounds.

This is all in a small city with a small immigrant/non-white population. In London and the South East I gather, from friends and relatives, the situation is FAR worse.

[Beskar]

Where abouts are you Beskar, in the North of England, I think?

That is correct. (North West)

In the South West the situation in much more like what Melendil describes, though not as extreme. I live (as EVERYBODY should know by now) in the Cathedral City of Exeter. This is a (relatively) wealthy and peaceful city, it is also a city housing an excellent university whose students make up around 10% of the population.

We have three social problems of varying severity:
Chavs
Arab Muslims from rich backgrounds
Fundamentalist Christians

More or less in that order. Of the three, the Christians are really only a problem for other Christians, and mostly on an individual harrassment basis. The Chavs are the cause of several rapes and violent attacks each year, mostly of 18 year old female students who walk down dark alleys because they think they are safe in the city. The Arabs are just an almighty nusience, they drink and smoke huge amounts of hash, play music at all hours and have disgusting personal habits. They also trwat white women as whores or servants.

I was unfortunate enough to have to live with one one year, after about 5 months of complaining the university kicked him out of Halls. His room had to be deep cleaned, to the tune of several hundred pounds.

This is all in a small city with a small immigrant/non-white population. In London and the South East I gather, from friends and relatives, the situation is FAR worse.

The biggest issue here are the chavs. They are the cause of gang-violence, violent attacks, drunken behaviour and everything. The minorities are basically NHS employees or Students. The minorities cause no issues at all. The immigration in the area is basically polish, so a lot of ****sky's (stars represent their surnames seem to all end with 'sky'/'ski') around here, but historically, the immigration here used to come from Scotland.

Yeah, I heard from people that in Burnley and Manchester, they have some issues, but in "my part of the world" as it were, it is not the case. So it is really weird for me to even accept the racism, as I don't see it, and where I do see this alleged behaviour, it is the "whites".

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

That is correct. (North West)

The biggest issue here are the chavs. They are the cause of gang-violence, violent attacks, drunken behaviour and everything. The minorities are basically NHS employees or Students. The minorities cause no issues at all. The immigration in the area is basically polish, so a lot of ****sky's (stars represent their surnames seem to all end with 'sky'/'ski') around here, but historically, the immigration here used to come from Scotland.

Yeah, I heard from people that in Burnley and Manchester, they have some issues, but in "my part of the world" as it were, it is not the case. So it is really weird for me to even accept the racism, as I don't see it, and where I do see this alleged behaviour, it is the "whites".

Yes, I suppose then that your lower class white demographic is mostly ex-industrial-without-hope. That's a problem with the North, and Thatcher's "amputation" of certain industries. Conversely, the poor in my area are general rural farmers, or ex-light industry (glove making used to be big near my home-town).

All this means we have different demographics and sub-cultures. Although, we do have those sorts of "white" chav in Plymouth.

[Viking]

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I'm opening this topic not because I've read some article, or seen something on TV, but as a result of some thoughts I've had lately, related to personal experiences. If you can't be bothered learning more about my life, just skip to the end part I guess. And sorry for the racist tone to my topic, if it does not respect the rules of the org, feel free to delete it.

I just had a talk with my little bro, about what he does in high school, his friends and what not. At first, we were simply discussing how his high-school has changed since I've been there, how are some profs doing, etc.. But quickly, the topic moved onto racial (or ethnical, as us french don't like the idea of race) tensions in said high-school. And it kind of shocked me to learn that most of my bro's friends are slowly becoming racists. They consider most arabs to be scums, thieves and generally, big twats. And so does my bro.

Now, I don't know how things were when you were 14-18 (my bro is 18), but back when I was young, racism was a big taboo among me and my friends. An oftenly-used insult was "facho" (a slang word for fascist). Sure, we all had our occasional problems/fights with some arab scum, but that was about it. We considered it was part of life and mostly got over it. When Le Pen (far right leader) made it to the second turn of the Presidential election, we all took the street, and shown our support to the black and brown population. My family encouraged me to do so. And proud we were, manifesting in support of freedom, tolerance and whatever. I remember some old arab shopkeeper who offered us free drinks during the protest. Poor guy was almost crying, and I was moved by him.

Nowadays, (almost ten years later) when I meet the same old friends, (some of them are still leftist hippies by all standards) racist jokes fly around, and even though we generally avoid the topic, we know we don't really hold arabs in our hearths.
Nowadays, my mum (socialist) who back then praised me when I protested against Le Pen call arabs with bad names and hate them with a passion.
Nowadays, my dad, who'd like to be a respectable, politically correct UMP-voter (right) often makes racist jokes too, and keep repeating "things are going to end badly".

We are all ashamed about it, but we all are racist of some sort. Whenever I get called names, whenever some guy tries to piss me off or to fight with me, sad to say, it's an arab. Whenever I see some macho-man scumbag calling girls 'sluts' in the street, it's an arab. Whenever I see a mean scum, it's an arab. And whenever I see an arab who doesn't look like and behave like a scum of earth or a religious nutjob, saddly, my first thought is "Wow, an arab who looks like you can have a civilized talk with him, crazy!".
I keep telling to myself "those are a minority, you can't blame all of them for the behavior of these ***holes". But I know it's pretty much useless. I don't have faith anymore.

I still get mad with some openly racist people I know (grandparents or what not), telling them the very same argument, but I don't believe it anymore. If I'd see that old arab shopkeeper again, I'd probably think "Meh, too bad for him, but he should have taught his kids to behave". I don't think I have an irrational hatred for colored people, as my two best girl-friends are respectively from Tahiti and Tunisia, but still.

It's quite telling that my Canadian girlfriend, who has lived in France for almost three months, thinks most arab youth in France are horrid scums (note that during these three months she had her share of issues with them). When she makes a comment about it, I don't know whether I should agree with her or stay politically correct and temper her thoughts with the same old "they're not all like this" argument. And you can't really accuse her of being a white racist imperialist scumbag either, as she's 3/4 native and kind of brown too.

And this feeling is pretty widely shared as far as I can tell. I still know some people who go on ranting about how France is a fascist country, about how immigrants are oppressed and victims of racism daily, about how the cops are responsible for every outburst of violence, but they're a tiny minority. The rest of the people balance between a politely (or cowardly) hidden angerness and open hatred.

My fear is that this rise of racism, which seems to not be restricted to France (one just has to see what's going on in Italy, Belgium, Spain, Switzerland or Germany) is the result of a mix of state propaganda and societal trend caused by economic and political uncertainties. What if things weren't really worse now than they used to be in the past? What if my shameful feelings aren't caused by rational thinking, but by some insidious brainwashing? What if I'm only not reminding the cases where a white scum pissed me or someone else off? I genuinely can't think of such an event happening in the last five years, but heh.

As I type this, I don't really know what the purpose of this thread is. Maybe it's some kind of cry for help: "Help me, I'm becoming racist". Or maybe I just wanted to express my feelings regarding a scary and disturbing evolution of our society and of myself.

It's not really racism until you tie it down to the concept of "race". As for propaganda, yeah, I think we are surrounded by it all the time, and it goes both ways. I don't know if things go downhill, but they change for sure. In Oslo, "native" pupils will soon be a minority.

[Strike For The South]

Ok all kidding aside, why is this so bothersome?

People migrate and people mix it has been happening since the dawn of time. As long as Western culture and ideals stay intact who cares how many natives there are?

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Ok all kidding aside, why is this so bothersome?

People migrate and people mix it has been happening since the dawn of time. As long as Western culture and ideals stay intact who cares how many natives there are?

It's an issue because the immigrants are the ones causing all the problems. When a segmant of society, most of whom have arrived in the last 50 years, is responsible for so much unrest then the natural inclination is tto want to surgically remove them. Especially in Europe, where space and resources are extremely limited.

[Strike For The South]

It's an issue because the immigrants are the ones causing all the problems. When a segmant of society, most of whom have arrived in the last 50 years, is responsible for so much unrest then the natural inclination is tto want to surgically remove them. Especially in Europe, where space and resources are extremely limited.

Yall invited them in the firstplace no?

You need them don't you?

Excuse any ignorance but it seems like reactionary nativism

But do they?

It is your job to be the vanguard and pass on the ideals. Do work

[Viking]

You need them don't you?

What are they needed for exactly?

It is your job to be the vanguard and pass on the ideals. Do work

The key is that many might just have different ideals, and that they'll naturally not surrender those that easily.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Yall invited them in the firstplace no?

No, not unless you count the Afro-Carribeans who came over after WWII, and are not a part of the current problem. Most of the reaction today is against Africans and Arabs who have migrated in the last 20 years or so, being either 1st or 3rd generation.

You need them don't you?

Not at all, all they do is undercut the native work force.

This American myth that, "Europe needs brown people" is just that, a myth. The entire sodding continent is fit to burst, and every country has levels of unemployment greater than the number of jobs taken by migrants.

[Viking]

As long as Western culture and ideals stay intact who cares how many natives there are?

But do they?

[Meneldil]

People migrate and people mix it has been happening since the dawn of time. As long as Western culture and ideals stay intact who cares how many natives there are?

That's precisely the issue, the people I'm talking about, who make up the most vocal - if not the most numerous - part of African immigration don't want to mix, don't give a damn about the so-called "Western values" and despise french and white people.

Well, I don't agree. Infact, it would be hard for me to agree.

That's fine for you. I don't have problems with the brown immigrants who work hard and behave like any normal person (that is, as long as they don't suddenly become muslim nutjobs at some point, which seems to be another weird developement of late). Sad part is, anytime I meet one of them, I'm puzzled. Because that's a rare sight.

I live in Southern France, in Montpellier. The city (like most of the South) is known for its high unemployement, poverty and crime rate. And weirdly, it is also know for its huge arab population. The same goes for most of the towns with many colored people: Toulouse, Marseilles, Strasbourg, Paris suburban area...

Yall invited them in the firstplace no?

You need them don't you?

No and no. My state invited their parents and grandparents, before I was born. At a time when Western Europe was desperately looking for people willing to do the dirty works. Nowadays, unemployement has skyrocked, and we certainly do not need anymore people to feed and to welfare-ize.

And yet, there is a pervasive, all-encompassing fear of immigrants, and immigration. Never mind the fact that immigration is negligible in my community. Never mind the fact that immigrants have a (general) economic benefit to the nation. Never mind the countless statistics that prove that immigrants are less likely to cause crime, put less strain on public services etc. It is so utterly out of proportion that it cannot be called anything other than how Gordon Brown called it, bigotry.

Care to enlighten me with your sources? In France, Arabs and Blacks make up for 60% of the people in prison, while only being ~15% of the country's population. Less likely to cause crime my ass. As for the positive effect on national economies, I'm more than willing to see your sources. Until then, I'll scream bollox.

Even if it were the case, so what? I don't give a damn about the positive economical aspects of a population that generally hates me, hates my family, hates my culture and my country and think it has a historical entitlement to do so.

You can throw all the lame excuses regarding these population lack of will to integrate: racism, colonialism, economical exploitation in the 60's, worldwide victimization of muslims... I don't give a crap. I wasn't there in the 60's, never asked them to come, I'm not an Israeli colon in Cisjordania. I protested against racism and intolerance, and what did I get in return? Scorn and hatred from the very same people I thought I was helping. So scorn and hatred is what they shall expect from me now.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Why don't you just make it a requirement to become a citizen if you are to legally immigrate to France or wherever. I assume in the citizenship process you must learn the cultures history and western ideals. At least make it obvious upfront that this is way we operate and this is our culture that you must behave to it if you want to live with us. Dont just say hey thanks for coming here from Algeria and then treat them with hostility 24/7 when they go about living like an Algerian and not a French.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

It's not really racism until you tie it down to the concept of "race".

Exactly. It's not racism in the OP, it's just the equivalent of disliking "chavs" or whatever they're called, in England.

[PanzerJaeger]

This thread could be a case study on the results of years of conditioning in political correctness. It highlights a major problem in modern Western thought. Instead of focusing on the real problem, our OP lingers in fear and self loathing over the mere thought of harboring any racist feelings.

The increasing anger the OP has towards the Arabs is obviously a reaction to their behavior, not their race. Their ethnicity does not give them special status in society to act inappropriately.

[Fragony]

This thread could be a case study on the results of years of conditioning in political correctness. It highlights a major problem in modern Western thought. Instead of focusing on the real problem, our OP lingers in fear and self loathing over the mere thought of harboring any racist feelings.

The increasing anger the OP has towards the Arabs is obviously a reaction to their behavior, not their race. Their ethnicity does not give them special status in society to act inappropriately.

uh-huh, now am I so smart that I see it earlier or am I clumsy because I say it earlier? OP shows how suffocating the social control of the leftist church can be. Poor guy is getting doubts.

[Megas Methuselah]

Man, all the whites in the Americas should go back to Europe and make the browns over there an even smaller minority.

Then we can all live in harmony or somethin like that.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Man, all the whites in the Americas should go back to Europe and make the browns over there an even smaller minority.

Then we can all live in harmony or somethin like that.

Interesting idea. Perhaps you can get some pointers from the Carthaginians or the Almohads....

[PanzerJaeger]

Almohads....

Such a great faction! European armor with CAMELS!

[rotorgun]

It's almost time to bring back dueling. If some dude, black or white, Christian or Muslim, Lithuanian or not would have called my sister or my date a whore, I would have walked across the street and socked him on the yapper so that his lips would be sore for a week or more. I probably would have had a few choice remarks about his family lineage as well. I judge people one at a time, but can appreciate how difficult it can be to adjust to a new culture.

[Strike For The South]

This thread could be a case study on the results of years of conditioning in political correctness. It highlights a major problem in modern Western thought. Instead of focusing on the real problem, our OP lingers in fear and self loathing over the mere thought of harboring any racist feelings.

The increasing anger the OP has towards the Arabs is obviously a reaction to their behavior, not their race. Their ethnicity does not give them special status in society to act inappropriately.

What is the real problem?

I agree there ethnicity gives them no special priviliges, however the European welfare state/though police has given them those priviliges. They've kind of dug there own grave

Not at all, all they do is undercut the native work force.

This American myth that, "Europe needs brown people" is just that, a myth. The entire sodding continent is fit to burst, and every country has levels of unemployment greater than the number of jobs taken by migrants.

Well they are here, and you probably wont be kicking out 3rd gens so Europe is going to have to learn how to deal

Man, all the whites in the Americas should go back to Europe and make the browns over there an even smaller minority.

Then we can all live in harmony or somethin like that.

I can't stress how much you're stuck with me

[Megas Methuselah]

I can't stress how much you're stuck with me

I try my best to love you and your family and your people, but... it's SOOO hard.

[Strike For The South]

I try my best to love you and your family and your people, but... it's SOOO hard.

My people?

I have no people I represent myself

[Furunculus]

I'm opening this topic not because I've read some article, or seen something on TV, but as a result of some thoughts I've had lately, related to personal experiences. If you can't be bothered learning more about my life, just skip to the end part I guess. And sorry for the racist tone to my topic, if it does not respect the rules of the org, feel free to delete it.

I just had a talk with my little bro, about what he does in high school, his friends and what not. At first, we were simply discussing how his high-school has changed since I've been there, how are some profs doing, etc.. But quickly, the topic moved onto racial (or ethnical, as us french don't like the idea of race) tensions in said high-school. And it kind of shocked me to learn that most of my bro's friends are slowly becoming racists. They consider most arabs to be scums, thieves and generally, big vulgarisms. And so does my bro.

Now, I don't know how things were when you were 14-18 (my bro is 18), but back when I was young, racism was a big taboo among me and my friends. An oftenly-used insult was "facho" (a slang word for fascist). Sure, we all had our occasional problems/fights with some arab scum, but that was about it. We considered it was part of life and mostly got over it. When Le Pen (far right leader) made it to the second turn of the Presidential election, we all took the street, and shown our support to the black and brown population. My family encouraged me to do so. And proud we were, manifesting in support of freedom, tolerance and whatever. I remember some old arab shopkeeper who offered us free drinks during the protest. Poor guy was almost crying, and I was moved by him.

Nowadays, (almost ten years later) when I meet the same old friends, (some of them are still leftist hippies by all standards) racist jokes fly around, and even though we generally avoid the topic, we know we don't really hold arabs in our hearths.
Nowadays, my mum (socialist) who back then praised me when I protested against Le Pen call arabs with bad names and hate them with a passion.
Nowadays, my dad, who'd like to be a respectable, politically correct UMP-voter (right) often makes racist jokes too, and keep repeating "things are going to end badly".

We are all ashamed about it, but we all are racist of some sort. Whenever I get called names, whenever some guy tries to piss me off or to fight with me, sad to say, it's an arab. Whenever I see some macho-man scumbag calling girls 'sluts' in the street, it's an arab. Whenever I see a mean scum, it's an arab. And whenever I see an arab who doesn't look like and behave like a scum of earth or a religious nutjob, saddly, my first thought is "Wow, an arab who looks like you can have a civilized talk with him, crazy!".
I keep telling to myself "those are a minority, you can't blame all of them for the behavior of these ***holes". But I know it's pretty much useless. I don't have faith anymore.

I still get mad with some openly racist people I know (grandparents or what not), telling them the very same argument, but I don't believe it anymore. If I'd see that old arab shopkeeper again, I'd probably think "Meh, too bad for him, but he should have taught his kids to behave". I don't think I have an irrational hatred for colored people, as my two best girl-friends are respectively from Tahiti and Tunisia, but still.

It's quite telling that my Canadian girlfriend, who has lived in France for almost three months, thinks most arab youth in France are horrid scums (note that during these three months she had her share of issues with them). When she makes a comment about it, I don't know whether I should agree with her or stay politically correct and temper her thoughts with the same old "they're not all like this" argument. And you can't really accuse her of being a white racist imperialist scumbag either, as she's 3/4 native and kind of brown too.

And this feeling is pretty widely shared as far as I can tell. I still know some people who go on ranting about how France is a fascist country, about how immigrants are oppressed and victims of racism daily, about how the cops are responsible for every outburst of violence, but they're a tiny minority. The rest of the people balance between a politely (or cowardly) hidden angerness and open hatred.

My fear is that this rise of racism, which seems to not be restricted to France (one just has to see what's going on in Italy, Belgium, Spain, Switzerland or Germany) is the result of a mix of state propaganda and societal trend caused by economic and political uncertainties. What if things weren't really worse now than they used to be in the past? What if my shameful feelings aren't caused by rational thinking, but by some insidious brainwashing? What if I'm only not reminding the cases where a white scum pissed me or someone else off? I genuinely can't think of such an event happening in the last five years, but heh.

As I type this, I don't really know what the purpose of this thread is. Maybe it's some kind of cry for help: "Help me, I'm becoming racist". Or maybe I just wanted to express my feelings regarding a scary and disturbing evolution of our society and of myself.

what you describe is a direct consequence of:

too much non-assimilated immigration breeding fear and contempt from 'swamped' locals.

too great an attempt to strip people of their national identity by coercing them to become 'european' which leads to zenophobia.

i have repeatedly said, and stand by the absolute truth of, the fact that the EU,s ultimate goal of creating a stable and liberal europe free from political extremism and war, will be a victim of the methods that federalists think will bring about this goal. i.e. ever deeper union.

europe achieved its best possible outcome before masttrict, everything since has been a retrograde step from the point of view of its first goal, the project should have stopped their. then we would not be having STUPID arguments about whether turkey is 'european' to be admitted.

it is that simple!

[Banquo's Ghost]

what you describe is a direct consequence of:

too much non-assimilated immigration breeding fear and contempt from 'swamped' locals.

too great an attempt to strip people of their national identity by coercing them to become 'european' which leads to zenophobia.

i have repeatedly said, and stand by the absolute truth of, the fact that the EU,s ultimate goal of creating a stable and liberal europe free from political extremism and war, will be a victim of the methods that federalists think will bring about this goal. i.e. ever deeper union.

europe achieved its best possible outcome before masttrict, everything since has been a retrograde step from the point of view of its first goal, the project should have stopped their. then we would not be having STUPID arguments about whether turkey is 'european' to be admitted.

it is that simple!

I don't agree that it is simply a matter of European policy. Sentiments like Menedil's have been expressed about outsiders for centuries. We can see similar fears being expressed in the thread on Mexican immigration to the USA. These feelings are exacerbated in the modern era by the factors of globalisation and welfare entitlements. The latter has created a substantial underclass, in which immigrant populations are over-represented.

You have argued eloquently in another thread that the BNP (for example, but equally most other European racist parties) is supported mostly by disaffected Labour voters. Globalisation has meant that it is far easier for people to travel from blighted homelands to the comparative wealth of developed countries and both governments and businesses have been complicit in exploiting this source of cheap labour to keep wages down. In economic downturns, the immigrants provide a convenient scapegoat as in former times.

The people most affected by these policies are the poor and uneducated, most of who have been consigned to the welfare state (or minimum wage, at best). Since they are already consigned to dire ghettos, the establishment of rival ghettos threatens their natural territory, as well as their means of subsistence. Previous posters have noted "chavs" and other tribal epithets - these are all labels for the disenfranchised, each group posing a threat to middle class equanimity. Various immigrant groups are merely additional sets embodying these anxieties.

There is no doubt in my mind that there are far too many immigrants in several European countries - but also far too big an underclass as a whole. In other words, far too many unproductive people - no-one seems to object to a law-abiding, well-integrated, tax-payer, be they immigrant or "native", do they? Since globalisation has too many advantages to forego, we need to address the issue of welfare as a priority - for both native and immigrant. It should not be possible for an immigrant to obtain any sort of welfare support that resembles anything like a lifestyle choice - any more than it should be possible for any citizen, native born or otherwise, to have children merely for the sake of getting state aid to live or any similar wheeze. Welfare reform would go a long way to addressing the economic incentives to settle in developed countries.

In parallel, I would advocate that businesses are held liable for the costs of making staff redundant instead of being able to pass these costs onto the state through welfare. The savings made by significantly reducing welfare dependency would be passed back to business through tax reductions. If a business wished to reduce costs by redundancy, it would have to make sure the affected people were supported until they got a new job. This would greatly reduce the use of immigrant, low-cost labour for short-term profit which can then be off-loaded onto the state when times get a little tough.

Thirdly, multi-culturalism and all its pernicious influences should be actively erased from policy. Language, literacy and numeracy standards should be enforced and citizenship examinations in line with Western secular values required - applied to the entire underclass, as well. Ghettoes existing on whatever lines must be disbanded - therefore housing policy must be completely reviewed in line with the suggestion on welfare reform. Allowing immigrants or anyone else to be sidelined (or sideline themselves) from productive society is a recipe for the sense of isolation and anger Menedil is witnessing now directed at him.

Europe's problem is not immigration per se, but the long-standing willingness to allow great numbers of people to fester without a stake in society. Those of us who do have such a stake are not only being drowned by the financial demands such a policy has imposed, but are also feeling threatened by those who, despite such generous help, feel entitled to more.

[Furunculus]

good post, i skim-read Melendil's post and replied to what i thought was being asked; about the expression of anger as racism as opposed to the cause of an angry underclass.

[Fragony]

Hate to say the boringly obvious, but what if Islamic and Western culture are just too different to live side by side. We have such a different take on just about everything. The only thing we have in common is that there are always more good people then bad ones, that is not an excuse for cultural relativation, we are no equals we are centuries ahead of them. They simply do not belong here.

disclaimer: they are welcome to live here as long as they keep to OUR rules and don't try to impose THEIR'S (that hardly happens though it's more of a leftist hobby to go full frontal when one does) , but that's that and that should be more than enough.

[Hax]

European armor with CAMELS!

Everything is better with camels.

I hate to say the boringly obvious, but what if Islamic and Western culture are just too different to live side by side.

I don't buy that. It's not clash of civilizations, but rather a mixture of them. You can see that happening in the Maghribi countries, for example.