So, I am the only one thinking things are going downhill in Europe?

[Banquo's Ghost]

what you describe is a direct consequence of:

too much non-assimilated immigration breeding fear and contempt from 'swamped' locals.

too great an attempt to strip people of their national identity by coercing them to become 'european' which leads to zenophobia.

i have repeatedly said, and stand by the absolute truth of, the fact that the EU,s ultimate goal of creating a stable and liberal europe free from political extremism and war, will be a victim of the methods that federalists think will bring about this goal. i.e. ever deeper union.

europe achieved its best possible outcome before masttrict, everything since has been a retrograde step from the point of view of its first goal, the project should have stopped their. then we would not be having STUPID arguments about whether turkey is 'european' to be admitted.

it is that simple!

I don't agree that it is simply a matter of European policy. Sentiments like Menedil's have been expressed about outsiders for centuries. We can see similar fears being expressed in the thread on Mexican immigration to the USA. These feelings are exacerbated in the modern era by the factors of globalisation and welfare entitlements. The latter has created a substantial underclass, in which immigrant populations are over-represented.

You have argued eloquently in another thread that the BNP (for example, but equally most other European racist parties) is supported mostly by disaffected Labour voters. Globalisation has meant that it is far easier for people to travel from blighted homelands to the comparative wealth of developed countries and both governments and businesses have been complicit in exploiting this source of cheap labour to keep wages down. In economic downturns, the immigrants provide a convenient scapegoat as in former times.

The people most affected by these policies are the poor and uneducated, most of who have been consigned to the welfare state (or minimum wage, at best). Since they are already consigned to dire ghettos, the establishment of rival ghettos threatens their natural territory, as well as their means of subsistence. Previous posters have noted "chavs" and other tribal epithets - these are all labels for the disenfranchised, each group posing a threat to middle class equanimity. Various immigrant groups are merely additional sets embodying these anxieties.

There is no doubt in my mind that there are far too many immigrants in several European countries - but also far too big an underclass as a whole. In other words, far too many unproductive people - no-one seems to object to a law-abiding, well-integrated, tax-payer, be they immigrant or "native", do they? Since globalisation has too many advantages to forego, we need to address the issue of welfare as a priority - for both native and immigrant. It should not be possible for an immigrant to obtain any sort of welfare support that resembles anything like a lifestyle choice - any more than it should be possible for any citizen, native born or otherwise, to have children merely for the sake of getting state aid to live or any similar wheeze. Welfare reform would go a long way to addressing the economic incentives to settle in developed countries.

In parallel, I would advocate that businesses are held liable for the costs of making staff redundant instead of being able to pass these costs onto the state through welfare. The savings made by significantly reducing welfare dependency would be passed back to business through tax reductions. If a business wished to reduce costs by redundancy, it would have to make sure the affected people were supported until they got a new job. This would greatly reduce the use of immigrant, low-cost labour for short-term profit which can then be off-loaded onto the state when times get a little tough.

Thirdly, multi-culturalism and all its pernicious influences should be actively erased from policy. Language, literacy and numeracy standards should be enforced and citizenship examinations in line with Western secular values required - applied to the entire underclass, as well. Ghettoes existing on whatever lines must be disbanded - therefore housing policy must be completely reviewed in line with the suggestion on welfare reform. Allowing immigrants or anyone else to be sidelined (or sideline themselves) from productive society is a recipe for the sense of isolation and anger Menedil is witnessing now directed at him.

Europe's problem is not immigration per se, but the long-standing willingness to allow great numbers of people to fester without a stake in society. Those of us who do have such a stake are not only being drowned by the financial demands such a policy has imposed, but are also feeling threatened by those who, despite such generous help, feel entitled to more.