Shinobis

[Brandy Blue]

I've seen some posts which suggest that the more shinobi you have in a rival's province, the more likely there will be a rebellion, and the bigger it will be. Is this
true? I think in MTW, only the highest valor spy counts.

Same question with shinobis for preventing rebellions. If I have more than one in a province do they all improve loyalty, or only one? What about the chance of
capturing enemy shinobi and ninja?

[Togakure]

I've always believed that shinobi stacking is active in STW/WE, though I believe you're right about MTW.

Say I move a half dozen shinobi in an enemy province that was just taken and left with a small garrison. The next turn, the province rebels. All my shinobi in that province gain honor, not just one. This suggests to me that all are affecting. On the other hand, if a half dozen are guarding one of my provinces and intercept an enemy ninja, only one seems to get the credit (increased honor).

I do believe that the number of shinobi increases the chances of a rebellion, but I'm not convinced that it will be bigger. I think the size of the rebellion is tied somewhat to the size of the enemy garrison, not the number of enemy shinobi. I haven't don't any testing to confirm or deny this though.

[caravel]

Masamune is right. Shinobi in STW are different to the spies in MTW in that their effect is cumulative. I think this was fixed in MTW as it was seen as an exploit.

[gollum]

Masamune's observations are mine too. In MTW the exploit was overfixed because of the very cheap border forts. In STW Shinobis are indeed overpowered and underpriced. It would have suffice to raise their training cost (perhaps 300 to 400 koku) to fix the problem (then 2 shonibis=1 border fort and not 8shinobis=1border fort that renders the bf obsolete in the current price).

[caravel]

Yes there was a switch around between shinobi and ninja between STW and MTW. In the latter Assassins became the cheaper unit that can be upgraded fully and is available earliest. For spies you need the castle, they're more expensive to train and the last building in the brothel tech tree cannot be built for some unknown reason. It is definitely an "overfix", in that it makes spies much less worthwhile. The tech tree for spies/assassins in the VI campaign was better IMHO. On the whole though, I prefer how Shinobi/Ninja are in STW.



Edit: for those that don't like border forts, you should be able to stop the AI building them in the building choices file. This will probably mean a lot more AI shinobi and ninja running around though.

[chaouki]

has someone an explanation why an enemy ninja is able to kill multiple priests in one of my provinces despite having a shinobi there? i always thought he would kill every ninja there like the enemy border forts seem to do

[caravel]

Hello chaouki,

This is based on agent honour. When a ninja infiltrates a province his honour is tested against the counterspies there. This is not a simple less than or greater than calculation, but includes a random factor as well. Higher honour simply increases the chance of success for the agent.

For example if a 4 star ninja enters a province he first has to survive the counterspies in that province. If the counterspy in the province consists of 0 - 1 star ninja/shinobi, then it's likely that the ninja will pass through undetected. If the counterspy is a 2 - 3 star shinobi/ninja then the chances of his being caught are higher.

Border forts are roughly equivalent to something like a 4 or 5 star shinobi so their success rate is higher. The problem with border forts is that they render your shinobi/ninja redundant and they won't gain honour for catching rival agents (because the border fort catches them instead).

[chaouki]

ah thanks, the rank system explains a lot. didn't think about it :(

well even though i'll stick to shinobis for the known reasons and build a couple additional priests instead :D

[Togakure]

The key is that the security check (counterspies; border forts) seems to be made once--when an assassin enters a province. Once in, a ninja doesn't have to go through the security check again (unless he leaves the province and attempts to return), and can attempt to assassinate any target in the province--all he needs is a successful kill roll.

If I have emissaries or valuable low-star generals in a province where an enemy ninja has just infiltrated and killed, I move them elsewhere, usually to a province heavy with security in hope that the assassin will be caught following them. Usually I'll keep moving them between high-security areas each season until the ninja is caught.

I realized this when I'd flood a province with shinobi/ninja counterspies after being attacked by ninja and they didn't seem to have any effect. The assassin kept killing the soft targets in the province, turn after turn. Finally, I moved the remaining targets to another port with a border fort and a pack of spies, the enemy ninja was caught immediately.

[Brandy Blue]

Thank you everyone. With that information in mind, I just might have a nasty surprise for that naughty Oda warlord who broke our alliance.

[gollum]

Not sure that the security check is made once. For example when i enter a province with a team of ninjas and the province has BFs some of the ninjas get caught in entering, but if i leave the rest in, in subsequent turns the rest get caught as well.

[ReluctantSamurai]

but if i leave the rest in, in subsequent turns the rest get caught as well.

That's been my experience with shinobi....if I leave them in an enemy province after they've made it past the bf, they will all eventually get caught if I don't move them.

[caravel]

As far as I know the counterspy check occurs every turn. This is also the case in MTW. I can see why it can sometimes appear that the check only occurs once though, because once a rival clan's ninja is in, kills and increases in honour, he can leave your counterspies behind in terms of honour, making him harder and harder to catch. This is where the tactic of pulling out all of the "soft targets" into any border forted province comes into it's own. Hopefully the ninja will follow the emissaries/priests - to his death.

[Togakure]

Ah, perhaps my perceptions/memories are off then. I've been assuming the check occurs once based on what I've seen (heh, what I remember). I haven't used strategic ninja teams in a very long while so I've forgotten how they behave under these circumstances. Shinobi teams yes, but after reading ReluctantSamurai's post and Asai's observations (re: honor increasing per kills), I think I am off on this.

What I do know is, enemy ninja have infiltrated my provinces regularly, avoided Border Forts and half a dozen counter-agents continuously enough (even when reinforced with more spies) that I eventually became annoyed and eventually started the "move the soft target party" tactic after a while, which seemed to work well.

Sorry for the misinformation. That's one of the nice things of having a lot of polite experienced players participating in these discussions. Things we "think through" on the fly while playing get a bit more focus when mentioned here, and from multiple, interested perspectives.

[Jef Costello]

I think Asai is correct here. Every turn that your shinobi fail to catch an infiltrator will let him increase his honour.
Is there a thread discussing how ninja build up honour?
Shinobi seem to add 1 honour with every kill but ninjas take several kills unless the chance of success is low.

[caravel]

I think Asai is correct here. Every turn that your shinobi fail to catch an infiltrator will let him increase his honour.
Is there a thread discussing how ninja build up honour?
Shinobi seem to add 1 honour with every kill but ninjas take several kills unless the chance of success is low.

That's not quite what I was saying. A Shinobi/Ninja does not gain honour by evading capture. My point is that while a Ninja is in the province killing your emissaries/priests/generals/daimyo/geishas, he is gaining honour and thus getting more and more difficult for your counterspies to catch.

Shinobi gain honour from catching an infiltrator or causing a revolt, ninja seem to also gain honour from catching infiltrators and successful assassinations - I'm not sure if Ninja gain less honour from catching infiltrators though (it certainly does seem so).