Acropolis Now

[Fragony]

Shamelesly stolen title.

Greece. What to do with them. I understand that it's nice to stop working at 54 but can't do that so stop murdering bank-employees. A loan for Greece? I don't want to pay their pension and 14 month a year. Or anyone's really. It is really time the strong nations team up, Netherlans Germany & the Vikings, own currency, or we end up as the tit of the garlic-belt.

[Banquo's Ghost]

You are rapidly challenging SFTS as the king of pithy summations.

Since Greece should never have been allowed into the euro, I think it is time it was ejected - and probably several other countries too. I fear it is only a matter of time anyway, so the intelligent response from France, Germany and the Netherlands would be to take the painful decision now. Let Greece go bankrupt, which is actually better for them in the long run.

Ireland can be listed in the roll-call of shame, except we have (so far) taken our bitter medicine without anything more dramatic than a surge in beer sales.

[PanzerJaeger]

It is funny/sad for those of us in the rest of the world watching these people throw such a tantrum over their equally generous and unfunded entitlements. Hopefully it will also serve as a warning in addition to a tragic comedy.

[InsaneApache]

I hope my dads going to be ok.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Greece is a country on the brink. If they take the unpopular, tough route, then they will ride it out. If these populist idiots win, then the country is going straight down the pan...

[Beskar]

Greece is a country on the brink. If they take the unpopular, tough route, then they will ride it out. If these populist idiots win, then the country is going straight down the pan...

It already is. Unfortunately, Greece is known for its corruption. They don't even use bank accounts, they just take the money and hide it under the bed to fiddle the taxman.

[Husar]

I hope my dads going to be ok.

Let's hope his dad is okay.

Otherwise I agree with Banquo and PJ, except that I'm not against entitlements in general, just when they are entirely unfeasible, can't be financed and yopu start demanding money from others (like the greek left seems to do now) I tend to say you're going way too far and yes, they should be evicted from the eurozone and be left to deal with it themselves. Somehow a lot of people seem to forget that they lied to get in in the first place so the contract or whatever should be invalid IMO.

And that some of them kill people by burning banks over it is just....unbelievable....

[Hosakawa Tito]

It already is. Unfortunately, Greece is known for its corruption. They don't even use bank accounts, they just take the money and hide it under the bed to fiddle the taxman.

It's much worse than that. Tax evasion is like a national sport.

[Kagemusha]

What is being done right now is the only thing we can do. Send economic aid to Greece, while make the restrictions so severe that the kind of spending happened there wont start ever again. The Euro needs to be saved. It is far more important then Greece.

[Fragony]

Just about everything is more important than Greece. There is also Spain, Portugal and Italy that are soon going to roll on the floor crying for candy.

[Kagemusha]

Just about everything is more important than Greece. There is also Spain, Portugal and Italy that are soon going to roll on the floor crying for candy.

And if that happends its the end of our monetary Union.

[InsaneApache]

It's much worse than that. Tax evasion is like a national sport.

Another jolly little jape they use is that tax is not payable on a house until it is completed. Cue lots of three story houses with the top floor unfinished. Pater says that when you get swindled out there, it's known as being 'greeked'. Lots of nice people eh?

[Hosakawa Tito]

Another jolly little jape they use is that tax is not payable on a house until it is completed. Cue lots of three story houses with the top floor unfinished. Pater says that when you get swindled out there, it's known as being 'greeked'. Lots of nice people eh?

So is Pop living there or just visiting?

[InsaneApache]

He's lived on Corfu for most of the last decade.

[Paltmull]

My first post in the backroom! Yay!

I don't think you should blame the people of Greece too much for not paying taxes, really. The main problem is probably found in the extreme political corruption rather than in some tax-evasion- culture. For example, a Greek friend of mine told me how, when a new mayor was elected in her town, one of the mayor's relatives suddenly got a large luxurious villa that he couldn't possibly afford. It was quite obvious that it was funded with the tax payers' money. If this is common, then it's quite understandable that people aren't too eager to pay their taxes. In order to be willing to pay your taxes you have to feel that you actually contribute to society. If I knew that my money just ended up in the politicians' pockets, then i wouldn't pay taxes either.

[Beskar]

Perhaps they should riot over that then, opposed to the reforms that need to be done?

[Paltmull]

EDIT: I misread your post first, so here's the real reply:

Well, if you have such a negative picture and tradition of taxes and politicians, then it's understandable that you're not going to approve of a reform that includes even higher taxes. People probably feel that they're being punished for something that not they, but the politicians, have caused.

[Furunculus]

My first post in the backroom! Yay!

I don't think you should blame the people of Greece too much for not paying taxes, really. The main problem is probably found in the extreme political corruption rather than in some tax-evasion- culture. For example, a Greek friend of mine told me how, when a new mayor was elected in her town, one of the mayor's relatives suddenly got a large luxurious villa that he couldn't possibly afford. It was quite obvious that it was funded with the tax payers' money. If this is common, then it's quite understandable that people aren't too eager to pay their taxes. In order to be willing to pay your taxes you have to feel that you actually contribute to society. If I knew that my money just ended up in the politicians' pockets, then i wouldn't pay taxes either.

people are responsible for the democracy they live in.

greece should never have been let in, that it was is indication of the projects political ambitions over and above its economic sense.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Welcome to the Backroom, Paltmull!


- Greece, Bulgaria and Romania should never have joined the EU.

- I'm with the Greek protesters. The problem is the Greek upper class, the politicians (pretty much a synonym), the corruption. The state is bankrupt, yet the Greek harbours make the yachts in Monaco look like rowing boats. If taxes were collected, there wouldn't be a problem at all.

- We are not supporting Greece, we are supporting our banks. It is their loans we are covering with public money.

That is, the poor in the West will have to pay the rich in the West, because the rich in Greece will not pay taxes like the poor in Greece must. As with the financial crisis, it is again an enormous transfer of wealth from the poor to the rich.


I consider Greece another lesson in the dangers of rightist populism - the state as the client of corporations and the rich, anti-taxation sentiment, love for strong men and a bloated military. The difference between Greece, Argentina and the West isn't that big, all it takes is for the beleaguered middle class in the West to become as shortsighted as in these places, and vote themselvers out of existence by stripping themselves of the rule of law, equality, taxation and a functioning, decent government.

[Skullheadhq]

the state as the client of corporations and the rich, anti-taxation sentiment, love for strong men and a bloated military.

Hey, that sounds somewhat familiar...

[KukriKhan]

Greece, Bulgaria and Romania should never have joined the EU.

Ever? Or just when they did? Maybe later? Too late now?

[Louis VI the Fat]

Ever? Or just when they did? Maybe later? Too late now?

Back when Greece joined, Europe was still divided. When they became a democracy, it made sense to pull them in the Western camp, and away from the Ameri, erm, dictatotial camp.

The EU has functioned as a great sausage - it bolsters the democratic parties in countries during and after dictatorships with the promise of a viable future as part of a wealthy democratic bloc. It is a great instrument of pressure - reform into a democracy and you get to join. It worked wonders in Spain and Portugal, and later Eastern Europe. Not just before 1989, but also in the transitional phase of the 1990s. Most in Eastern Europe did not lapse in the nineties and naughties into some sort of semi-dictatorship like Byelorussia, but slowly transformed themselves into functioning democracies. Which is not as self-evident as it appears.

As such, it was a historic necessity that Greece could join. Dwarfing the current events.

But Greece has not been a good partner. Too corrupt, too much dependent on subsidies. Too much forever following its own agenda. Sometimes downright obstructing Europe. Like Greece, Portugal never really took off economically either, like the succes stories Spain and Ireland did. But at least Portugal is on the whole a more reliable partner. (Or maybe I just feel more culturally connected to Portugal than to the Balkan).

[Crazed Rabbit]

- I'm with the Greek protesters. The problem is the Greek upper class, the politicians (pretty much a synonym), the corruption. The state is bankrupt, yet the Greek harbours make the yachts in Monaco look like rowing boats. If taxes were collected, there wouldn't be a problem at all.

Bah! To me they seem like spoiled children who got paid beyond their means for years and now the bill is finally due. It was the Greek protesters who voted in government after corrupt government and didn't mind while they were getting paid. Now the consequences of their actions have come and they refuse to accept them.

"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want and deserve to get it good and hard."

— Henry Mencken

Kick them out of the EU and let them go bankrupt, I say! I'm also most displeased American money (via the IMF) is helping them out.

That is, the poor in the West will have to pay the rich in the West, because the rich in Greece will not pay taxes like the poor in Greece must.

From the article linked it seems like avoiding the taxman is a sport every class engages in.

CR

[Louis VI the Fat]

"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want and deserve to get it good and hard."

— Henry Mencken

Kick them out of the EU and let them go bankrupt, I say!

If it were up to me, they'd be kicked out of the Euro.

But..then they'll be stuck with a useless currency. So they can't pay their bills. Which means a problem to Western banks and pension funds - those who hold the debt. They can't collect their debt.

Greece can default, but our financial system can't take it. It is this system we are trying to save, not Greece.

"If I owe you a thousand, I have got a problem. If I owe you a million, you have got a problem."

- John Maynard Keynes.

Edit: Iceloand got us all real good too. They, however, did it with their liberal banking rules, exporting useless finance and banking services. We have to pay the bill for saving the damage it caused to our financial system too. Yet nobody complains about the Icelanders. Iceland simply voted in a referendum to default, and leave Europe with the bill.
Give me Greece instead. The Greeks, because they are part of the EU, unlike Iceland, did not vote to simply not pay, nor does it really have that option as a fellow EU member. Unlike the poor in Iceland, who voted not to pay for the damge their banks caused, the protesters in Greece do not have this choice. So I would burn down a bank in Athens too, if I were them.

[Crazed Rabbit]

But..then they'll be stuck with a useless currency. So they can't pay their bills. Which means a problem to Western banks and pension funds - those who hold the debt. They can't collect their debt.

Greece can default, but our financial system can't take it. It is this system we are trying to save, not Greece.

Are you sure? How many nations are in the EU, and how many banks are there lending large amounts of money to nations? Surely the majority of banks can't be so tied up in Greek debt that they'll fail if Greece doesn't pay.

And why should you bail out the banks who made risky and foolish investments in Greece, if 'the system' isn't in existential danger? The banks and country ought to be punished for their stupidity. Letting the banks lose millions or more could prevent the next such crisis from happening; banks wouldn't lend to corrupt governments spending like drunken sailors if they thought they might not get the money back.

CR

[Furunculus]

here you go:

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2...f=weekinreview

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on the other hand Britain's prospects look pretty good:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/7...no-Greece.html

toodlepip!

[tibilicus]

people are responsible for the democracy they live in.

greece should never have been let in, that it was is indication of the projects political ambitions over and above its economic sense.

I have found in the past that your probably slightly more right thinking when it comes to the EU than me but your spot on here.

Greece was rotten when it first entered and not much has changed since then. In fact, arguably some of the newer members which joined in 2004 are less corrupt and more economically stable than Greece and some of the others that joined in the 80s. Point being the desire for European integration has clearly been put before the interests of an stable European market, something which arguably was the principle reasoning behind forming the EEC/EU.

it's just as well I guess then that the Uk has left its distance between the European market and our own independent market. The fact that the Eurozone is so heavily reliant on Germany, France and the other big players isn't a healthy situation at all. The whole idea of the single currency was that it would allow the lesser European economies to grow and would perhaps take away the responsibility of the bigger economies to hold down a stable currency. This clearly hasn't happened and as a result these nations are left to pay the bill thanks to Greece's reckless corruption and inability to act as a coherent member of the EU. If I was the Germans I would of just kicked them out..

[Hosakawa Tito]

He's lived on Corfu for most of the last decade.

Nice place to retire, the current situation notwithstanding. I pray that he stays safe.

I seem to remember reading somewhere recently that since their independence, Greece has been in a state of national insolvency half that time. Not a very promising track record at all. I can't blame those in the EU that want to kick them out either, not with that type of historical fiscal foolishness.

Looks like the Brits refusal to adopt the euro was a good move.

[Louis VI the Fat]

toodlepip!

Yes, within Europe, the UK is second only to Greece in deficit spending.

The UK is one of the largest creditors of Greece. Yet because the UK is not in the Euro, British banks will be saved by the taxpayers in other countries.

The centre of European haute finance, of constant pressure for even less regulation, and the final recipient of taxpayer funded bailouts, is the City of London.

Ceaseless attacks on the Euro by speculators originate in London. The risks of this are for the European taxpayer, the profit for London.

[/perfidious Albion, rant rant rant]

[Ibn-Khaldun]

I really don't understand how these riots could possibly help the Greeks? Will burning cars etc will bring them money? I don't think so. If I'm mad because my government screwed up I don't go out and burn/destroy every car I see. There are other ways to express my self. But I guess it's that hot southern blood what makes them act like that.