Halberdiers

[caravel]

What class of general were the AI fielding? I'm guessing a 0 star or very low. Also I can only see one valour pennon per unit and only in the forth screenshot down - in the other screenshots I cannot make out any pennons at all. Valour makes a huge difference and any such test must be carried out on a level field with equal valour and upgrade stats and 0 star generals on both sides. The bridge scenario also puts the attacker at a huge disadvantage.

The halbs valor is from the general so not moral bonus. They were trained in a provence with a church and relquary. So that would be +3 morale. I agree that is it no the best example, but it was the one on hand. I use them simeratly in open field battles, to intercept any Cav that charge my lines.

The units do get a morale bonus from the general, the bonus from the church and reliquary would also skew the results. Gonig by his personal on the field valour of 10, I would say your general could not have been less than a 5 star?

[m52nickerson]

Yes my general was 5 stars at the time. I did not think that the valor given by generals included a morale boost.

I'm sure that if you ran a zero valor unit of halbs against a zero valor unit of heavy cav the halbs would break. I'm not trying to argue against that, and stated right off the bat that halbs need morales boosts.


....then again

I ran at test of basic halbs (no upgrades) vs basic chiv knights.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

The halbs won, killing 30 and losing 8. Re-running the test gave similar results each time. The halbs often wavered but did not break. The test was run on normal difficulty.

[caravel]

Interesting result, but in a head on confrontation against the AI with 2 ranks deep formation, my money would be on the halbs anyway - especially in the hands of a human player. They have a cavalry attack bonus after all and the long drawn out formation allows them to "wrap" around the enemy cavalry's deeper column. The halbs also have the advantage in numbers. I don't think the issue in debate here is "can halbs kill cavalry?" - they can. The issue is, are they worth the money when compared to similar units that can perform the same job - I would say not.

Head on is also never the best for cavalry as it does not take full advantage of their greater mobility. If the Knights had moved onto a flank and charged then withdrawn a few times, while giving the halbs the run around, the battle would have had a very different outcome.

The good thing about JHI, billmen and CFK is that they are also quite simply very good infantry units - not just role specific cavalry killers. All of these units have better overall stats to halbs.

When I used to play MTW I would make exensive use of the CFK (dismounted CK) in anti-mongol defences. CFK were solid and dependable for those horrendously long battles, even when tired. Halbs ruined my defensive line up countless times, by routing en masse and taking other units with them. This is because halbs take too many morale hits (to their already low base morale) from these gruelling battles in the heat for hours on end.

I suppose it's "horses for courses", but I prefer a combined arms approach to defence rather than a mass of polearms units. To me it makes more sense to field a lot of spears and missiles and use polearms or axes in lesser numbers as flanking units. I've always found this strategy to deal the most damage and to be a better use of resources.

[m52nickerson]

I suppose it's "horses for courses", but I prefer a combined arms approach to defence rather than a mass of polearms units. To me it makes more sense to field a lot of spears and missiles and use polearms or axes in lesser numbers as flanking units. I've always found this strategy to deal the most damage and to be a better use of resources.

Perhaps it comes down what people prefer. I don't like using spear units. I would rather use halbs then can charge forward past my missile units and engage incoming cav.

[The Lurker Below]

love halbs for blocking bridges on defense. they're also great for defending fortifications. halbs too slow for the open field. if the AI is using them i'll kite them away with a missle horse while i deal with the rest of their army. on paper they look very close to billmen but for some reason i've seen some stupidly heroic billmen while halbs fare only slightly better than the faster and cheaper spears.

[bondovic]

I thoroughly enjoyed the results of your test, nickerson. As has already been pointed out, this discussion resembles the one in the "Golden Horde" thread. I felt that the issue was obscured there in a manner similar to what's happened here.

The argument against halbs shouldn't be that they're useless, but that they offer a worse exchange in the kill/death ratio compared to spears + flankers. Halbs are sensitive souls who need to be watched over. Done correctly, they provide a certain deterrent to HC flankers. As I said in "Golden Horde", I, personally, prefer the traditional high ratio approach to recieving charges - spears + flankers. With the flankers being MS, most likely.

[m52nickerson]

If the argument against them is regarding kill/death ratio then I son't see a problem. I admit that spears + flankers are going to kill more with less losses. Even when I'm using Halbs I still flank with my Cav in order to break the enemy quicker. It sounded to me that people were arguing that Halbs were usless for other then arrow catchers. I find them easier to use then spears especially when I'm using Arbs.