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I once defeated a Kataphraktoi-army with Iberian Assault Infantry in an online battle, Iberian Assault Infantry is tough. If this wasn't a thread about killing me I could have given some advice.
Originally Posted by vartan:
Against other phalangites, you would require more ranks, less frontage, and guard off, to push.
Then we agree on that one :)Against other phalangites, you would require more ranks, less frontage, and guard off, to push.
Originally Posted by vartan:
Guard mode sword vs guard mode pike is a problem. Your flanks will be destroyed and you will lose the game if you don't use your pikes offensively. [...]
Really? Isn't the entire point of hammer-anvil tactics to have the center hold the major part of the enemy forces, while attacking them on the flanks and from behind? Because then you can simply save a lot of money by using cheap levy phalangites - the enemy won't break through them anyway - and then spend much more on strong flanking troops; which will result in the enemy's flanks being destroyed. Your phalangites don't really have to do anything, other than holding the enemy, as long as your flanks are strong, 'aight?Guard mode sword vs guard mode pike is a problem. Your flanks will be destroyed and you will lose the game if you don't use your pikes offensively. [...]
I'd take Carthies over Roma any day - not because I'm a Romaioktonos, but because of three words - Sacred Band Cavalry. Far superior to anything the romans have to offer. Not to mention these:
You have great Elite African units (the pikemen are monsters; the elite infantry are essentially superior legionaries); Iberian Assault Inf and LibyPhoenician Elite Inf to crush other elites with AP secondaries (falcatae and axes, respectively), solid Libyan and LibyPhoenician troops as line infantry, and good African regionals to do ranged work (don't compare to cretans, but Numidian Cavalry are good for dealing with those via javelins)
You have great Elite African units (the pikemen are monsters; the elite infantry are essentially superior legionaries); Iberian Assault Inf and LibyPhoenician Elite Inf to crush other elites with AP secondaries (falcatae and axes, respectively), solid Libyan and LibyPhoenician troops as line infantry, and good African regionals to do ranged work (don't compare to cretans, but Numidian Cavalry are good for dealing with those via javelins)
Originally Posted by Paltmull:
Really? Isn't the entire point of hammer-anvil tactics to have the center hold the major part of the enemy forces, while attacking them on the flanks and from behind. Because then you can simply save a lot of money by using cheap levy phalangites - the enemy won't break through them anyway - and then spend much more on strong flanking troops; which will result in the enemy's flanks being destroyed. Your phalangites don't really have to do anything, other than holding the enemy, as long as your flanks are strong, 'aight?
On the tournament matches that was the thing what happened with "Hellenistic" players. Cheap phalangites could hold the line without problem, so you could spend your mnai on heavily armoured cavalry and hardcore flank protector troopers and assault infantry.Really? Isn't the entire point of hammer-anvil tactics to have the center hold the major part of the enemy forces, while attacking them on the flanks and from behind. Because then you can simply save a lot of money by using cheap levy phalangites - the enemy won't break through them anyway - and then spend much more on strong flanking troops; which will result in the enemy's flanks being destroyed. Your phalangites don't really have to do anything, other than holding the enemy, as long as your flanks are strong, 'aight?
I won two battles this day, not against skullhead but against worms136( possibly you don't know him). Karthadast against Arke Seulekia. Just phalanx vs phalanx, protecting flanks and flank charge with cavalry, i just slaughtered his phalanx and the other troops where no match for some naked infantry, iberian assualt and some other infantry. I might get better :). Thanks for advice about guard mode and such really helped.
Originally Posted by Paltmull:
Really? Isn't the entire point of hammer-anvil tactics to have the center hold the major part of the enemy forces, while attacking them on the flanks and from behind? Because then you can simply save a lot of money by using cheap levy phalangites - the enemy won't break through them anyway - and then spend much more on strong flanking troops; which will result in the enemy's flanks being destroyed. Your phalangites don't really have to do anything, other than holding the enemy, as long as your flanks are strong, 'aight?
But your flanks aren't strong. We're talking human vs human, not computer. There is no time to lose. If you don't take initiative you lose the game. The enemy isn't attacking you from the front, just standing there, so you're not guarding or pinning anything. You're just being wasted on the flanks and your horses are being matched and their every move is being watched. Reserves of the enemy are on their toes. You need to push and kill. Only way to realize this? Online battle.Really? Isn't the entire point of hammer-anvil tactics to have the center hold the major part of the enemy forces, while attacking them on the flanks and from behind? Because then you can simply save a lot of money by using cheap levy phalangites - the enemy won't break through them anyway - and then spend much more on strong flanking troops; which will result in the enemy's flanks being destroyed. Your phalangites don't really have to do anything, other than holding the enemy, as long as your flanks are strong, 'aight?
Long time lurker first time poster here.
I've played multi player quite a bit and I think I may be able to offer some valuable advice.
First of all because the mod focus's on historical accuracy all units/factions won't be equally balanced and equally useful which is perhaps the main problem with competitive EB multi payer. If you want to have the best most effective army possible your army composition will involve a lot of spam which to be honest stifles game play diversity a bit. I personally think the best multi payer experience is one where players invent cool little scenarios and innovative house rules.
So I watched the replay and the first thing I noticed (naturally) was unit composition which I believe was skewed heavily in the favor of the Carthaginian player for a number of reasons.
1: Elite African Pikemen I would consider arguably the best pikemen in the game in terms of cost effectiveness, significantly better than medium pikes for 50% increased cost. Also the 4k elite pikemen of the successor factions though powerful are simply too expensive to be worth it, but then at 50k this might not be such a big deal.
2: 3x Hellenic Spearmen vs 3x Iberian assault infantry, 2x Liby-Phoenician Heavy Infantry, 1x Greek Hoplites and 2x naked fanatics is a no brainer. Just the 3 assault infantry alone adds significant synergy to a phalanx army where as in this context the Hellenic spearman's only worthwhile use would be as a cavalry screen. The heavier Hellenic Hoplites in my opinion are better suited to guarding the flanks and filling the gaps of your phalanx line.
3: 3 units of Hellenic skirmisher cavalry is a complete waste against such a heavily armored army, given the presence of Thracian Light cavalry as an extra to the 3 companians Macedonia had only a slight edge in the cavalry department though not nearly enough to redress the imbalance in infantry. Basically it might as well of been 17 units vs 20 in favor of Carthage.
Also even though the archer strength was equal I question their cost effectiveness, with so many phalanx's and other armored troops around I probably would of only bothered with 1 or maybe no ranged units in favor of some medium infantry.
Tactics
Both players made a lot of mistakes, not that I am implying I would be any better (playing is different from theory). However overall I think the loss can be attributed to the fighting on the left flank (Macedon's), even if the Macedonian army had won the phalanx combat I still think Carthage would of won. Frontal charges on infantry is not a bad idea but a sustained melee against spearmen is, withdrawing right after a charge is essential, hit and run tactics is what makes charge cavalry worth the cost of deploying them. That attack alone pretty much reduced the Macedonians cavalry strength by a third with minimal losses to the Carthaginians. Afterward a unit of Companion's cops a full charge from 1 maybe 2 units of Iberian heavy cav, then finally the rest of Companion's is surrounded and routed after another ineffective charge. Basically the Macedonians were out manned and out microed on the left flank allowing Carthage to surround and steamroll to victory.
I wont go too much into the corrections because much of it is obvious from the critique above but I will say that the Macedonians suffered from a lack of assault infantry which could of been used to great effect on the right flank. Agrians or Thracian peltasts would of been and excellent choice.
As far as phalanx usage is concerned, it is pretty subtle and complicated and I am not too sure on the best way to use them so I would take Vartan's advice where that is concerned. What I do know is the formations need to be deeper (5 or 6 ranks) because not only does this increase damage over a smaller area but phalanx's are also very robust when surrounded, you have a large (relatively) window of opportunity to save them before they rout. This is also why ap troops are very important against phalanx's, I have won battles against roman opponents where my entire line was surrounded for 5 minutes by legionnaire's, because their weapons weren't ap I had plenty of time to finish the cavalry engagement and save my line with Alexandrian style charges for an overwhelming victory. I will admit this may be a bit imbalanced.
I would also like to say that even though there are quite a few underwhelming units in the game there is only one unit (that I've noticed) that I think is particularly overpowered which is pretty impressive considering the amount of units in the game. This unit is the Thracian peltast it is cheap, skirmisher, high damage javelins, well armored, high stamina, nice shield and a high lethality ap falx secondary. In short the unit has no weaknesses and is effective against every unit type in the game.
Sorry for the long winded essay but I thought I'd make an effort considering it was my first post and all.
Note: I stuck with English naming for clarity.
I've played multi player quite a bit and I think I may be able to offer some valuable advice.
First of all because the mod focus's on historical accuracy all units/factions won't be equally balanced and equally useful which is perhaps the main problem with competitive EB multi payer. If you want to have the best most effective army possible your army composition will involve a lot of spam which to be honest stifles game play diversity a bit. I personally think the best multi payer experience is one where players invent cool little scenarios and innovative house rules.
So I watched the replay and the first thing I noticed (naturally) was unit composition which I believe was skewed heavily in the favor of the Carthaginian player for a number of reasons.
1: Elite African Pikemen I would consider arguably the best pikemen in the game in terms of cost effectiveness, significantly better than medium pikes for 50% increased cost. Also the 4k elite pikemen of the successor factions though powerful are simply too expensive to be worth it, but then at 50k this might not be such a big deal.
2: 3x Hellenic Spearmen vs 3x Iberian assault infantry, 2x Liby-Phoenician Heavy Infantry, 1x Greek Hoplites and 2x naked fanatics is a no brainer. Just the 3 assault infantry alone adds significant synergy to a phalanx army where as in this context the Hellenic spearman's only worthwhile use would be as a cavalry screen. The heavier Hellenic Hoplites in my opinion are better suited to guarding the flanks and filling the gaps of your phalanx line.
3: 3 units of Hellenic skirmisher cavalry is a complete waste against such a heavily armored army, given the presence of Thracian Light cavalry as an extra to the 3 companians Macedonia had only a slight edge in the cavalry department though not nearly enough to redress the imbalance in infantry. Basically it might as well of been 17 units vs 20 in favor of Carthage.
Also even though the archer strength was equal I question their cost effectiveness, with so many phalanx's and other armored troops around I probably would of only bothered with 1 or maybe no ranged units in favor of some medium infantry.
Tactics
Both players made a lot of mistakes, not that I am implying I would be any better (playing is different from theory). However overall I think the loss can be attributed to the fighting on the left flank (Macedon's), even if the Macedonian army had won the phalanx combat I still think Carthage would of won. Frontal charges on infantry is not a bad idea but a sustained melee against spearmen is, withdrawing right after a charge is essential, hit and run tactics is what makes charge cavalry worth the cost of deploying them. That attack alone pretty much reduced the Macedonians cavalry strength by a third with minimal losses to the Carthaginians. Afterward a unit of Companion's cops a full charge from 1 maybe 2 units of Iberian heavy cav, then finally the rest of Companion's is surrounded and routed after another ineffective charge. Basically the Macedonians were out manned and out microed on the left flank allowing Carthage to surround and steamroll to victory.
I wont go too much into the corrections because much of it is obvious from the critique above but I will say that the Macedonians suffered from a lack of assault infantry which could of been used to great effect on the right flank. Agrians or Thracian peltasts would of been and excellent choice.
As far as phalanx usage is concerned, it is pretty subtle and complicated and I am not too sure on the best way to use them so I would take Vartan's advice where that is concerned. What I do know is the formations need to be deeper (5 or 6 ranks) because not only does this increase damage over a smaller area but phalanx's are also very robust when surrounded, you have a large (relatively) window of opportunity to save them before they rout. This is also why ap troops are very important against phalanx's, I have won battles against roman opponents where my entire line was surrounded for 5 minutes by legionnaire's, because their weapons weren't ap I had plenty of time to finish the cavalry engagement and save my line with Alexandrian style charges for an overwhelming victory. I will admit this may be a bit imbalanced.
I would also like to say that even though there are quite a few underwhelming units in the game there is only one unit (that I've noticed) that I think is particularly overpowered which is pretty impressive considering the amount of units in the game. This unit is the Thracian peltast it is cheap, skirmisher, high damage javelins, well armored, high stamina, nice shield and a high lethality ap falx secondary. In short the unit has no weaknesses and is effective against every unit type in the game.
Sorry for the long winded essay but I thought I'd make an effort considering it was my first post and all.
Note: I stuck with English naming for clarity.
Originally Posted by Skullheadhq:
I once defeated a Kataphraktoi-army with Iberian Assault Infantry in an online battle, Iberian Assault Infantry is tough. If this wasn't a thread about killing me I could have given some advice.
The biggest determinations on casualties for an infantry unit is whether or not you catch them moving.I once defeated a Kataphraktoi-army with Iberian Assault Infantry in an online battle, Iberian Assault Infantry is tough. If this wasn't a thread about killing me I could have given some advice.
Originally Posted by Danos13:
I won two battles this day, not against skullhead but against worms136( possibly you don't know him). Karthadast against Arke Seulekia. Just phalanx vs phalanx, protecting flanks and flank charge with cavalry, i just slaughtered his phalanx and the other troops where no match for some naked infantry, iberian assualt and some other infantry. I might get better :). Thanks for advice about guard mode and such really helped.
Worms136 is another EB player from my class. And yes, I was an observer and whispered the tactics in his ears. It was a 1v1v1 battle and they tried to kill me. So I just crossed the red line and helped one party.I won two battles this day, not against skullhead but against worms136( possibly you don't know him). Karthadast against Arke Seulekia. Just phalanx vs phalanx, protecting flanks and flank charge with cavalry, i just slaughtered his phalanx and the other troops where no match for some naked infantry, iberian assualt and some other infantry. I might get better :). Thanks for advice about guard mode and such really helped.
On what minai limit do you play?
Originally Posted by Skullheadhq:
Worms136 is another EB player from my class. And yes, I was an observer and whispered the tactics in his ears. It was a 1v1v1 battle and they tried to kill me. So I just crossed the red line and helped one party.
the second battle you said about no gaurd mode and some, but first battle i did completely alone and i had nearly the same victory.Worms136 is another EB player from my class. And yes, I was an observer and whispered the tactics in his ears. It was a 1v1v1 battle and they tried to kill me. So I just crossed the red line and helped one party.
Originally Posted by Jebivjetar:
On what minai limit do you play?
50000 no upgrades and no horse archersOn what minai limit do you play?
Originally Posted by Danos13:
50000 no upgrades and no horse archers
I thought so. Yesterday Skull and I were playing with the same amount of money. For a long time i was playing on 36k, and when one got 50k, there's nothing more logical than to chose a lot of elites. 50000 no upgrades and no horse archers
Why don't you try with 36k? That way both of you will probably decide to take many "weaker" (less expensive) units (i supose you wont take, say, cca 10 units of elites only and spend all of your money exclusively on them), and thus you'll, imo, make your games more challenging (and more fun, if you ask me).
Good idea, that will give more variety.
Nice post scattered. and welcome to the forum!
Originally Posted by vartan:
But your flanks aren't strong. We're talking human vs human, not computer. There is no time to lose. If you don't take initiative you lose the game. The enemy isn't attacking you from the front, just standing there, so you're not guarding or pinning anything. You're just being wasted on the flanks and your horses are being matched and their every move is being watched. Reserves of the enemy are on their toes. You need to push and kill. Only way to realize this? Online battle.
Ah, whatever. I haven't played MP in years, so you probably know better than I do. Anyway, my original point had nothing to do with this. It was about not using guard mode when fighting phalangites with phalangites.But your flanks aren't strong. We're talking human vs human, not computer. There is no time to lose. If you don't take initiative you lose the game. The enemy isn't attacking you from the front, just standing there, so you're not guarding or pinning anything. You're just being wasted on the flanks and your horses are being matched and their every move is being watched. Reserves of the enemy are on their toes. You need to push and kill. Only way to realize this? Online battle.
Originally Posted by Scattered:
Long time lurker first time poster here.
The Thracian peltast it is cheap, skirmisher, high damage javelins, well armored, high stamina, nice shield and a high lethality ap falx secondary. In short the unit has no weaknesses and is effective against every unit type in the game.
You finally got an account on The Guild. Nice. Agree with everything you said. I definitely have to agree with the Thraikioi Peltastai. With as lethal a secondary as that, there's no beating it unless you have grand missile power and/or cavalry.Long time lurker first time poster here.
The Thracian peltast it is cheap, skirmisher, high damage javelins, well armored, high stamina, nice shield and a high lethality ap falx secondary. In short the unit has no weaknesses and is effective against every unit type in the game.
Originally Posted by vartan:
You finally got an account on The Guild. Nice. Agree with everything you said. I definitely have to agree with the Thraikioi Peltastai. With as lethal a secondary as that, there's no beating it unless you have grand missile power and/or cavalry.
Indeed, this is the most versatile unit in the game. In the hands of a skilled player, you can perform miracles with these great soldiers!You finally got an account on The Guild. Nice. Agree with everything you said. I definitely have to agree with the Thraikioi Peltastai. With as lethal a secondary as that, there's no beating it unless you have grand missile power and/or cavalry.
~Fluvius
Yeah, there seems to be an error - as it's a 1h rhomphaia. Whatever, Thraikioi are stupid good.
Originally Posted by gamegeek2:
Yeah, there seems to be an error - as it's a 1h rhomphaia. Whatever, Thraikioi are stupid good.
No error. It ain't an axe, mace, (none) << bows, slings, etc., or spear (includes javelins), so it's a sword. Falx are classified as sword there.Yeah, there seems to be an error - as it's a 1h rhomphaia. Whatever, Thraikioi are stupid good.
50k? that is a dream for a Getai player ...
phalanx can be simple to overcome in a battle when you get the game mechanics down .. (or depending on the player )
just put any tough unit of spearmen ( yes spearmen) against them in a thin formation on guard mode ... do not let them attack !!! .. just leave them to hold the phalanx line . (example Thorakitai Stratiotai ) ... nice to bring a unit or two to intimidate behind your main line too .
AP AP AP AP AP .. the Getai have some of the best if not the best AP units in the entire game .. in fact my general is always a Rhomphaiaphoroi and he leads a charge on a flank . also Bastarnisku are one of the best units price wise .. they can decimate pretty much any elite unite for half the price .
two units of heavy HA and the rest can be prodromoi with 1 upgrade ,
rush ...oh yeah and bring slingers with you to ward off the harassing cav...
if your opponent goes all horse archers .. just quit the game right away or run for the trees .. lol
edit - any remaining money ... be sure to add un upgrade to each unit
phalanx can be simple to overcome in a battle when you get the game mechanics down .. (or depending on the player )
just put any tough unit of spearmen ( yes spearmen) against them in a thin formation on guard mode ... do not let them attack !!! .. just leave them to hold the phalanx line . (example Thorakitai Stratiotai ) ... nice to bring a unit or two to intimidate behind your main line too .
AP AP AP AP AP .. the Getai have some of the best if not the best AP units in the entire game .. in fact my general is always a Rhomphaiaphoroi and he leads a charge on a flank . also Bastarnisku are one of the best units price wise .. they can decimate pretty much any elite unite for half the price .
two units of heavy HA and the rest can be prodromoi with 1 upgrade ,
rush ...oh yeah and bring slingers with you to ward off the harassing cav...
if your opponent goes all horse archers .. just quit the game right away or run for the trees .. lol
edit - any remaining money ... be sure to add un upgrade to each unit
Originally Posted by mountaingoat:
50k? that is a dream for a Getai player ...
phalanx can be simple to overcome in a battle when you get the game mechanics down .. (or depending on the player )
just put any tough unit of spearmen ( yes spearmen) against them in a thin formation on guard mode ... do not let them attack !!! .. just leave them to hold the phalanx line . (example Thorakitai Stratiotai ) ... nice to bring a unit or two to intimidate behind your main line too .
AP AP AP AP AP .. the Getai have some of the best if not the best AP units in the entire game .. in fact my general is always a Rhomphaiaphoroi and he leads a charge on a flank . also Bastarnisku are one of the best units price wise .. they can decimate pretty much any elite unite for half the price .
two units of heavy HA and the rest can be prodromoi with 1 upgrade ,
rush ...oh yeah and bring slingers with you to ward off the harassing cav...
if your opponent goes all horse archers .. just quit the game right away or run for the trees .. lol
edit - any remaining money ... be sure to add un upgrade to each unit
Never considered just spearmen could beat elite phalanx, i might try it sometime50k? that is a dream for a Getai player ...
phalanx can be simple to overcome in a battle when you get the game mechanics down .. (or depending on the player )
just put any tough unit of spearmen ( yes spearmen) against them in a thin formation on guard mode ... do not let them attack !!! .. just leave them to hold the phalanx line . (example Thorakitai Stratiotai ) ... nice to bring a unit or two to intimidate behind your main line too .
AP AP AP AP AP .. the Getai have some of the best if not the best AP units in the entire game .. in fact my general is always a Rhomphaiaphoroi and he leads a charge on a flank . also Bastarnisku are one of the best units price wise .. they can decimate pretty much any elite unite for half the price .
two units of heavy HA and the rest can be prodromoi with 1 upgrade ,
rush ...oh yeah and bring slingers with you to ward off the harassing cav...
if your opponent goes all horse archers .. just quit the game right away or run for the trees .. lol
edit - any remaining money ... be sure to add un upgrade to each unit
Originally Posted by Danos13:
Never considered just spearmen could beat elite phalanx, i might try it sometime
Well they wont beat Macedonian phalanx, especially not from the front- but are able to hold those sarrisaephoroi in place for a very long time (e.g. in my both campaign and MP games i often deploy Liby-pheonican heavy infantry (spearmen) just to hold a phalanx in place. Any well armoured spearmen will be able to pin the phalanx in place. Just put them on guard mode and shall be good.Never considered just spearmen could beat elite phalanx, i might try it sometime
Because Skullhead also uses cataphraktoi the getai will be slaughtered!! also in MP your thin line of spearmen should be useless against a skilled player. Who tells you that he will atack them with his phalangitai front?
If I were skullhead I would put all my phalanxes out of guard mode and phalanx mode. Atack with them on the sides, lowering the spears against the AP units and destroy the thin line of the getai spearmen with just one cataphract charge. Than the getai forces are split into two and the fight is over.
If my current PC hadnt a proxy preventing me from playing EB online, I would love to beat the Getai with a diadochi force.
If they use the flanking tactic, just reverse it. If they are going all in just make a circle with your heavy infantry, shoot their horse archers and AP units etc.
In my opinion getai armies not going for extreme skirmishing and surprise atacks are doomed against any greek force.
Of course an army of upgraded skirmishers will pretty much anoy your oponent to death. ^^
Because the getai komatai are faster than phalangists you can always run away and shoot the enemy. If they counteratack with cavallery or fast units just pile your skirmishers up on them. The only problem should be an archer shoutout.
PS: Am I the only one preferring light troops with a lot of upgrades over elites?
If I were skullhead I would put all my phalanxes out of guard mode and phalanx mode. Atack with them on the sides, lowering the spears against the AP units and destroy the thin line of the getai spearmen with just one cataphract charge. Than the getai forces are split into two and the fight is over.
If my current PC hadnt a proxy preventing me from playing EB online, I would love to beat the Getai with a diadochi force.
If they use the flanking tactic, just reverse it. If they are going all in just make a circle with your heavy infantry, shoot their horse archers and AP units etc.
In my opinion getai armies not going for extreme skirmishing and surprise atacks are doomed against any greek force.
Of course an army of upgraded skirmishers will pretty much anoy your oponent to death. ^^
Because the getai komatai are faster than phalangists you can always run away and shoot the enemy. If they counteratack with cavallery or fast units just pile your skirmishers up on them. The only problem should be an archer shoutout.
PS: Am I the only one preferring light troops with a lot of upgrades over elites?
Except their house rules ban upgrades IIRC.
I might go for Saka - they get great infantry (Hoplitai Hellenikoi, Saka Agema) as well as cataphract and regular horse archers. (Though I seem to recall HAs being banned)
I might go for Saka - they get great infantry (Hoplitai Hellenikoi, Saka Agema) as well as cataphract and regular horse archers. (Though I seem to recall HAs being banned)
we don't use HAs any more because they annoy you to dead, we also don't use ups because light troops will easily slaughter unupgraded heavy troops whats a bit strange though
Originally Posted by Danos13:
we don't use HAs any more because they annoy you to dead, we also don't use ups because light troops will easily slaughter unupgraded heavy troops whats a bit strange though
HA's run out of arrows...we don't use HAs any more because they annoy you to dead, we also don't use ups because light troops will easily slaughter unupgraded heavy troops whats a bit strange though
It is not actually so strange that upgraded light troops beat the crap out of heavy inexperienced ones. Lots of people through time has thought that hardware would win wars, but few things until AI can beat a motivated veteran. Especially in a pre-firearms battle where the deciding factors was often morale breaking.
Here's a screen:
and another one:
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
and another one:
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Originally Posted by Skullheadhq:
HA's run out of arrows...
you liked them so much that you came up with that ruleHA's run out of arrows...
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