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    Member Member jabarto's Avatar
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    Default Re: School Books Rewritten in Texas

    This has been going on for months, I even made a thread for it when it first came up. I think the worst things are the emphasis on the imporatnce of the free market and the idea that this is a Christian nation. Both are laughably, objectively, and demonstarbly false. The others are bad, of course, but those two really seal the deal.

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    Senior Member Senior Member Brenus's Avatar
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    Default Re: School Books Rewritten in Texas

    History is an image a society wants to present to itself for its own benefit.
    That is why the same event describe by the different protagonists will differ.
    So every person involve in writing History wants his/her side seen as good, even if it wasn’t…

    History taught in Classrooms is more construction of Identity with Role Model and Heroes than real history.
    I have an English Colleague who can with a strait face tell me that England was never defeated. When I do answer that is why Philadelphia is still English, he just avoid answering
    Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. Voltaire.

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    "You did, sarge", said Polly." You said you were in few last stands."
    "Yeah, lad. But I was holding the metal"
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    Default Re: School Books Rewritten in Texas

    Quote Originally Posted by Brenus View Post
    History is an image a society wants to present to itself for its own benefit.
    That is why the same event describe by the different protagonists will differ.
    So every person involve in writing History wants his/her side seen as good, even if it wasn’t…
    Actually, Historiography is about trying to make sense of the past, that it used to push an agenda is merely a by-product of human nature. Nor are you correct to say that all history attempts to show the historian's own side as positive. Two examples of the latter pitch are German history of the Second World War and the British history of Colonialism. Any history has a bias, because any person has a bias, but Historiography is not about pushing a particular viewpoint above all else.

    History taught in Classrooms is more construction of Identity with Role Model and Heroes than real history.
    I have an English Colleague who can with a strait face tell me that England was never defeated. When I do answer that is why Philadelphia is still English, he just avoid answering
    True to an extent, but your English colleague clearly didn't pay attention in his history classes, as such a perverse view has never been taught in English schools. The closest you might come to that in the English educational system is the Churchillian cult of "We Won the War" in the 1950's during the post-Imperial period.

    Generally speaking, history is a perspective of the past constrained within the available facts.
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    Default Re: School Books Rewritten in Texas

    i dislike ancient history textbooks. It bothers me that sub-saharan africa gets as much notice as western europe and east asia. Yes, they ar eusually ignored and need to be learned about but there just isnt enough important stuff about the region as compared to the ME, Asia, Europe before colonization.

    Oh and we learned about native americans in US history for about 6 straight years in middle school.

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    Member Megas Methuselah's Avatar
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    Default Re: School Books Rewritten in Texas

    Quote Originally Posted by Centurion1 View Post
    Oh and we learned about native americans in US history for about 6 straight years in middle school.
    We didn't. Pretty amazing, considering how important we are in contemporary Canada. A study of the treaties should be an absolute necessity in the school system.

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    Pleasing the Fates Senior Member A Nerd's Avatar
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    Default Re: School Books Rewritten in Texas

    Native Americans are often overlooked. I learned most of what I know about them from the 1950's American Western and Last of the Mohicans. I know, it's pretty sad.
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    Default Re: School Books Rewritten in Texas

    Are you guys kidding me your not that much older............ That is like all we did for most of grade school.

    sorry megas but i can only learn about one thing for so long.

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    Default Re: School Books Rewritten in Texas

    Quote Originally Posted by jabarto View Post
    I think the worst things are the emphasis on the imporatnce of the free market and the idea that this is a Christian nation. Both are laughably, objectively, and demonstarbly false.
    How is the importance of the free market laughably, objectively, and demonstrably false? Are you saying that the free market as a concept is false, or that highlighting its importance in the development of the nation is somehow false?

    And please define a "Christian nation", as you understand it.

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    The Rhetorician Member Skullheadhq's Avatar
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    Default Re: School Books Rewritten in Texas

    Quote Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger View Post
    And please define a "Christian nation", as you understand it.
    Republican Utopia?
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    Default Re: School Books Rewritten in Texas

    Quote Originally Posted by jabarto View Post
    This has been going on for months, I even made a thread for it when it first came up. I think the worst things are the emphasis on the imporatnce of the free market and the idea that this is a Christian nation. Both are laughably, objectively, and demonstarbly false. The others are bad, of course, but those two really seal the deal.
    I think the argument is that we have a secular government but that our culture and laws are heavily influenced by the Judeo-Christian tradition. Some, as with Ms. Dunbar see this as defining us, in practice, as a Christian nation. Most would suggest she's over-stating things a notch. You are correct in that any "objective" assessment would note that we are not a theocracy on any level and that our Constitution actually makes the assumption of governmental power by some theocratic cabal almost impossible, barring some form of theocratic revolution.

    I fail to see, however, how anyone could credibly deny the importance of the "free market" to US history. While it is true that no nation has allowed (or could allow) a completely unfettered marketplace, the USA has approached that condition far more closely then have most other polities. Can you argue that we are not a true "free market" society? Of course, as there have always been regulations etc. that have influence marketplace interaction. Can you argue that the "free market" wasn't all that important? I think any such argument would be fatuous.
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

    "The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." -- H. L. Mencken

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    Default Re: School Books Rewritten in Texas

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh View Post
    I think the argument is that we have a secular government but that our culture and laws are heavily influenced by the Judeo-Christian tradition. Some, as with Ms. Dunbar see this as defining us, in practice, as a Christian nation. Most would suggest she's over-stating things a notch. You are correct in that any "objective" assessment would note that we are not a theocracy on any level and that our Constitution actually makes the assumption of governmental power by some theocratic cabal almost impossible, barring some form of theocratic revolution.
    I agree. Some seem to see any mention of Christianity as playing any part in the shaping of the nation as having some sort of theocratic intentions. Maybe Mrs. Dunbar (the only board member the Guardian decided to highlight for a story about the Board's decisions) does feel that way and maybe she doesn't, but the actual changes do not seem to reflect such a goal.

    Every president has been a Christian, most other politicians and policy makers have been Christian, and the vast majority of the nation's populace has always been Christian. I think those facts can exist along with the very important concept of the separation of church and state in America's history books without creating any cognitive dissonance among students. Trying to erase Christianity from textbooks is a true example of agenda-driven revisionism.

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    Banned Kadagar_AV's Avatar
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    Default Re: School Books Rewritten in Texas

    Quote Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger View Post
    I agree. Some seem to see any mention of Christianity as playing any part in the shaping of the nation as having some sort of theocratic intentions. Maybe Mrs. Dunbar (the only board member the Guardian decided to highlight for a story about the Board's decisions) does feel that way and maybe she doesn't, but the actual changes do not seem to reflect such a goal.

    Every president has been a Christian, most other politicians and policy makers have been Christian, and the vast majority of the nation's populace has always been Christian. I think those facts can exist along with the very important concept of the separation of church and state in America's history books without creating any cognitive dissonance among students. Trying to erase Christianity from textbooks is a true example of agenda-driven revisionism.
    Source?

    The right wing gains much from this claim, you want to back it up? From what I have read you seem to be wrong, but I will accept the facts you speak of if you can produce them.
    Last edited by Kadagar_AV; 05-20-2010 at 04:36. Reason: sp

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    Default Re: School Books Rewritten in Texas

    Quote Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV View Post
    Source?

    The right wing gains much from this claim, you want to back it up? From what I have read you seem to be wrong, but I will accept the facts you speak of if you can produce them.
    Historically, everyone in the cultural West was Christian, at least nominally. The same was true in America, Britain, even Sweden I'm afraid. This is still much more true in America than in Europe.
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    Default Re: School Books Rewritten in Texas

    Quote Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV View Post
    Source?

    The right wing gains much from this claim, you want to back it up? From what I have read you seem to be wrong, but I will accept the facts you speak of if you can produce them.
    Which of the three did you take issue with?

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    Default Re: School Books Rewritten in Texas

    Quote Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV View Post
    Source?

    The right wing gains much from this claim, you want to back it up? From what I have read you seem to be wrong, but I will accept the facts you speak of if you can produce them.
    This source provideds information on the religious affiliations of US Presidents as well as links to such assessments for other government figures. It cannot, of course, offer evidence as to the depth of their faith or its relevance to their policies save anecdotally.

    Consider this assessment of current religious affiliation, and this gives some timeline perspective.
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

    "The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." -- H. L. Mencken

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    Default Re: School Books Rewritten in Texas

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh View Post
    This source provideds information on the religious affiliations of US Presidents as well as links to such assessments for other government figures. It cannot, of course, offer evidence as to the depth of their faith or its relevance to their policies save anecdotally.

    Consider this assessment of current religious affiliation, and this gives some timeline perspective.
    those stats don't add up, about 5% of the total Christians population claimed (76%) in 2008 is unaccounted.
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    The Rhetorician Member Skullheadhq's Avatar
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    Default Re: School Books Rewritten in Texas

    Dutch Reformed -> 2 presidents but 0,1% of the population.
    Catholic -> 1 president but 24,5% of the population

    How funny, never knew this.
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    Banned Kadagar_AV's Avatar
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    Default Re: School Books Rewritten in Texas

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh View Post
    This source provideds information on the religious affiliations of US Presidents as well as links to such assessments for other government figures. It cannot, of course, offer evidence as to the depth of their faith or its relevance to their policies save anecdotally.

    Consider this assessment of current religious affiliation, and this gives some timeline perspective.
    I would argue that the early presidents, founding fathers additionaly so, were secularists first and foremost. It has even been argued by far greated minds than mine, that several of them were atheists, paying lip service.

    Remember that the US of A was not founded as a christian nation, no matter how much todays right-wing winds blow.

    Take the treaty with Tripoli as an example, drafted in 1796 under George Washington and signed by John Adams in 1797:

    Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

    Kind of fun reading this with modern eyes, no?

    Ironic how a nation founded in secularism today is one of the, if not the, most religious countrys. A scientific study has shown that the spining corpses of the founding fathers could be used as a alternative energy source, George Washington alone has been calculated to be able to fully suply the energy needs of an average town.


    I could of course also point at Jefferson, or how about this quote:

    To talk of immaterial existences is to talk of nothings. To say that the human soul, angels, god, are immaterial, is to say they are nothings, or that there is no god, no angels, no soul. I cannot reason otherwise... ... without plunging into the fathomless abyss of dreams and phantasms. I am satisfied, and sufficiently occupied with the things which are, without tormenting or troubling myself about those which may indeed be, but of which I have no evidence.

    Not the words of a Christian, now is it?

    Or Benjamin Franklin: Lighthouses are more useful than churches, sure, he was a deist, but it is not a great leap of faith to imagine he today would have been atheist. Christian however, he defianetly was not.


    However, main point would be, no matter if they all were atheists, deists or christian they had one thing in common - secularism!
    Last edited by Kadagar_AV; 05-21-2010 at 02:10. Reason: sp

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    Nobody expects the Senior Member Lemur's Avatar
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    Default Re: School Books Rewritten in Texas

    Quote Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV View Post
    Ironic how a nation founded in secularism today is one of the, if not the, most religious countrys
    There's absolutely nothing ironic or unexpected in that result. If anything, the codification of a religion with the state is bad for the state, but more importantly bad for the religion. Just imagine if, say, Lutheranism were legally aligned with George W. Bush, and had its prestige and status tied to him politically. Or imagine if Episcopalianism were paired up with Barack Obama.

    The separation of church and state is what has allowed and encouraged the U.S.A. to be one of the most religious nations on the face of the Earth. How this connection escapes both Europeans and American fundamentalists is beyond me.

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    Member Member jabarto's Avatar
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    Default Re: School Books Rewritten in Texas

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh View Post
    I think the argument is that we have a secular government but that our culture and laws are heavily influenced by the Judeo-Christian tradition.
    For the most part, you're right. This, however, just isn't true. Our legal traditions derive from Engish law, which in turn derived from Viking law, which was cribbed from Germanic law. Our legal traditions have more to do with naked face-painted barbarians than they ever did with Christianity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh View Post
    I fail to see, however, how anyone could credibly deny the importance of the "free market" to US history. While it is true that no nation has allowed (or could allow) a completely unfettered marketplace, the USA has approached that condition far more closely then have most other polities. Can you argue that we are not a true "free market" society? Of course, as there have always been regulations etc. that have influence marketplace interaction. Can you argue that the "free market" wasn't all that important? I think any such argument would be fatuous.
    I should have phrased that better. It's not so much that the free market wasn't important, because it was. The problem is that people think the free market was solely responisble for giving them what they have, and that's what's wrong. Sure, they didn't say that aloud, but we're talking about Texan conservatives here; do you really think they're going to give socialism and state intervention the proper due for making our country what it is?

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    Default Re: School Books Rewritten in Texas

    Quote Originally Posted by jabarto View Post
    For the most part, you're right. This, however, just isn't true. Our legal traditions derive from Engish law, which in turn derived from Viking law, which was cribbed from Germanic law. Our legal traditions have more to do with naked face-painted barbarians than they ever did with Christianity.
    While I agree that the ancient custom of weregeld was a large component of common law -- at least regarding torts -- there are simply too many laws that codify doctrines from the ten commandments and even (usually quite selectively) the Levitican proscriptions to ignore the influence of the Hebraic tradition, and too many doctrines that draw indirectly on canon law as well (not to mention the whole latinist character of US law). In addition, there is a bit of influence from the Brehon tradition in English law as well, not just the Skanda-Germanic. Moreover, while your point has a good deal of merit regarding the Law, the cultural influence of the Christian tradition on the USA simply cannot be minimized.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jabarto
    I should have phrased that better. It's not so much that the free market wasn't important, because it was. The problem is that people think the free market was solely responisble for giving them what they have, and that's what's wrong. Sure, they didn't say that aloud, but we're talking about Texan conservatives here; do you really think they're going to give socialism and state intervention the proper due for making our country what it is?
    I think socialism has had more of an impact in our reactions (and sometimes over-reactions) thereto. Will the conservatives of Texas give it short shrift? Possibly. Regrettably, we've got 518 years of continuous Euro-American history that is directly relevant to the present, to say nothing of the contributions of the Amerinds and tangential impacts like those of the Norse (and others?). Since we're talking a survey of history that has to fit into two textbooks of 400 pages or less, little or nothing will get a complete discussion. Since editing must occur, some "agenda" influence is inevitable.

    It's important to teach the High Schoolers to become critical consumers of information -- at least to the extent that they do not CHOOSE to wallow in ignorance.
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

    "The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." -- H. L. Mencken

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    This comment is witty! Senior Member LittleGrizzly's Avatar
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    Default Re: School Books Rewritten in Texas

    Then we learn about WWII, and the Nazi's (huzzah!) of course came straight out of the gates of hell, the whole Second World War happened because Hitler was a bad man, never mind studying why Nazism actually developed the way it did.

    Whilst we didn't study the development of nazism per say we did do quite a bit of work on the treaty of versailles and the inter war years (great depression, currency change, hitler made chancellor and finally the riechstag) unless the scottish history you did pushed out the inter war years and versailles, although I did do some welsh history (merthyr rising) maybe theres more scottish history to study as Wales has basically been a small part of England for hundreds of years

    Those believers were hardcore on AC, would always find they would be my main competitor as the Spartan faction, she didn't seem to be to big on diplomacy either she would reject even the most lopsided deals...

    To those who are saying obviously there is going to be an agenda one way or the other as theres only so much you can teach... then why replace what you have with rubbish like.... the israel palestine conflict is fueled by islamic extremism. If you are going to go into a topic you have to present the different sides of the argument, in my history class on ww2 we learnt about the reasoning behind the conflict different events and how they played out to lead us to WW2. If they were just going to come into the class tell us the germans were aggressive nazis we were the good guys and then just us some basic deatils of the conflict (D-Day, fall of france, stalingrad ect.) we would be better off not being told anything...

    Infact I don't think history should be about teaching conclusions, obviously sometimes there is right and wrong, black and white, but there is so much more grey out there. Teachers should tell you what happened leading up to whatever evenbt your studying but you should make your own conclusions on the evidence. If your teachers just comes out and says Islamic extremism fuels the israeli-palastinian conflict your not giving him a little bit of the puzzle (well you may be but not as far as he's concerned) you have given him the answer, for him to ever come to his own conclusion now he has to reject the original one that was forced on him and assess the evidence for himself. Sure lots of clever people will go back and look at all the events and make thier own conclusion, but even among the most intelligent people in society if they have no interest in that area they may accept something wildly inaccurate as fact as they were taught it, so most people who pay little attention but turn up on voting day.... they'll only have the conclusion they were given back in school
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    L'Etranger Senior Member Banquo's Ghost's Avatar
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    Default Re: School Books Rewritten in Texas

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh View Post
    I think the argument is that we have a secular government but that our culture and laws are heavily influenced by the Judeo-Christian tradition. Some, as with Ms. Dunbar see this as defining us, in practice, as a Christian nation. Most would suggest she's over-stating things a notch. You are correct in that any "objective" assessment would note that we are not a theocracy on any level and that our Constitution actually makes the assumption of governmental power by some theocratic cabal almost impossible, barring some form of theocratic revolution.
    I'd agree (though I suspect Ms Dunbar would not). However, my understanding is that the biggest influence the Judeo-Christian tradition had on the foundation of the United States was the horror of European religious divisions. Therefore, the Founding Fathers -whilst men of Christian faith and morals - took steps to ensure freedom of religion.

    It is true that they saw this as freedom of Christian conscience but when the more extremist religious proponents rise up to proclaim the US a "Christian" country, they tend to assume a monolithic Christianity (specifically theirs). Thus Roman Catholics or other denominations which have no truck with creationism, for example, do not seem to be included.

    The founders of the United States knew all about Christian schism and how it nearly destroyed the Europe their forefathers had fled from. Sadly, the religious fundamentalist persuasion is exactly contrary to the very freedom of conscience that allowed America to bloom.
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    Default Re: School Books Rewritten in Texas

    Quote Originally Posted by Banquo's Ghost View Post
    The founders of the United States knew all about Christian schism and how it nearly destroyed the Europe their forefathers had fled from. Sadly, the religious fundamentalist persuasion is exactly contrary to the very freedom of conscience that allowed America to bloom.
    The whole dream of the USA was a sectarian* society, where you could go to your own littly colony and built your own society, the "shining city on a hill" as the dream was.

    * The term 'sectarian' here being used in the sense it was historically, which meant effectively the different sects separating themselves from each other in society (as opposed to hatred between them as it tends to mean today). This was one of the big dynamics in the whole British Wars of Religion, with the Scottish Presbyterians calling the Puritans an "army of sectaries" (I think that was the term, IIRC), because its large numbers of Quakers and Anabaptists wanted to live in their own little communities, without any overarching established church.

    Of course, the Puritans and thier associated political ideologies are what made the USA, and so the fundamentalist persuasion is very much compatible with the values of the original settlers and to a large extent the founding fathers.
    Last edited by Rhyfelwyr; 05-20-2010 at 10:51.
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