The Faction Culture Discussions

[Rahwana]

Since we've work on the BI engine limitations, and planned to add bigger map area and more factions as the time progressed, currently, Cute Wolf and I discussed about some factions to be put in a larger cultures (bacause subcultures and cultures are blurred in this timeframe, namely we have 2 interesting discussion topics)

1) Pajajaran kingdom, shoud they got different culture or the same culture with Javanese factions? while they are rather unique in terms of cultural archievement, linguistically, and perhaps economically, they are no different than ancient Javanese, and only some little language differences exist in that time. CW designed Jawi culture to take up the "hun" culture slot.

2) Current research on south sumateran / sriwijayan culture factions show a rather contrary result with previous researches, it was true that they have several deviation that "Melayu" culture had, but they are actually called themself "Melayu", albeit with "dalam, or tua" title. So we decided to include them in extended Melayu cultures. CW designed melayu culture to take up the "eastern" culture slot.

and as an info European factions will took "roman" culture slot, and we will implement a "reform" by "marian reform-ish" trigger, namely when Europeans got their hands into one of the important town, and upgrade them to major cities (important cities got "italy" hidden resources)

[Cute Wolf]

And dont worry bout the structures, i allready planned to copy most of m2tw middle eastren const cards, and "barbarian" and "eastern" buildings in rtw seems pretty close when it comes to large or huge cities, the big problem is only one, we need to somehow integrate masjid in the city battle, but maybe simple port from m2 will work.

[Nyz]

I think RTW Eastern temples closely resembles Majapahit's Pura, Candi, temples and Wringin lawang, while Melaka and Palembang Masjid, even Masjid Agung Demak resembles Chinese architecture, can we borrow from Wundai at Ran no Jidai?

[G. Septimus]

I think RTW Eastern temples closely resembles Majapahit's Pura, Candi, temples and Wringin lawang, while Melaka and Palembang Masjid, even Masjid Agung Demak resembles Chinese architecture, can we borrow from Wundai at Ran no Jidai?

Vanilla Carthie Standard Buildings look like moaques

[Cute Wolf]

@ intifadanyz : perhaps, but it will be unfunny to have your "masjid" have buddha sculpture... and I think personally, the M2TW Masjid are better, the Demak dynasty and palembang did build their masjid resembles chinese architectures because they are descendant of Chinese muslims... but the Aceh and Malaka? I think not....

@GSS : what buildings? (thinking of the Awesome temple of Baal)

[Nyz]

Nop... not funny. that's true. Here the pic of traditional Masjid in Melaka.

Masjid Tangkera Melaka: The oldest

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Masjid Kampung Kling

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Masjid Kampung Hulu

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Masjid Kampung Umbai (Green structure, the peach one is Makam Sultan Ali)

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Masjid that have been built later in Malaya have Mughal, Iran, Turki and Arab architecture.... For Masjid Agung Baiturrahman in Acheh, that mosque have been built later to replace the one that destroyed in Acheh-Holland war... the former mosque has Malay-Cham traditional architecture...


Hmm...Awesome Eastern temple do resemble Prambanan temple....

[Cute Wolf]

I start to think that muslim chinese have far deeper impact on Nusantara muslim society... but at first, when we contacting the building creator, we should have the list of buildings that we may borrow... did you have RNJ?

[Nyz]

Yes. I have RNJ.

Well, there are theories that Islam came to Malaya from Arab, India and China.... and from China brought by Ming's Envoy Admiral Cheng Ho.

Sabuza: Islam from Umar Chaliphate
Perlak / Samudera : Shiite from Fatimid
Terengganu and Kelantan: From China

[plutoboyz]

well, that masjid is not Chinese style. its Nusantarian Style from Hindu architecture. see the roof.



this is Chinese-Hui Masjid!


btw what is RNJ?

[Nyz]

Ran no Jidai

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/downl...o=file&id=2724

BTW, this is Masjid Kampung Laut, Kelantan

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

This is Masjid with Malay architecture. The roof resembles Masjid Agung Demak.

[Nyz]

That Chinese Hui mosque, while traditional mosques in Melaka were not necessarily copying Hui style. They were influenced by Chinese architecture.

Journal Alam Bina (from Faculty of Built Environment, Universiti Teknologi Malaysia)
classified mosques architecture in Malaysia into 7 categories

a) Traditional Vernacular Style (Masjid Kampung Laut, Kelantan fall in this category)
b) Sino-Eclectic Style (Sino = Chinese; eclectic = combination of two or more influence of architectural language): Melaka traditional mosque in this category
c) Colonial (European) Style
d) North Indian (Mughal) Style
e) Modern Vernacular Style
f) Modernistic Style
g) Post Modern Revivalism (Construction of new Mosque using Turkey, Iran, Arab style)

Quote from the journal explaining Sino-Eclectic Style:

"As opposed to the ulama sponsored patronage of the traditional vernacular style, the sino-eclectic mosques have Chinese Muslim Merchants as their patrons. The rise of the merchant class saw the country in a situation where these wealthy people wield considerable influence over the socio-political affairs of their community. Since many of the mosque were built by Chinese craftsmen, there I the possibility of suggesting the similarity of Chinese architecture. The gateways are also elements that reinforce the notion of architectural language transfer from the Chinese religious architecture."

[Nyz]

It's OK to have Malay culture buildings to be like Barbarian culture buildings. Malay do built their building by using woods. The longhouses and huts models are OK, and tavern model can be official building. We can use all model such as palace, blacksmith, (Swordsmith model can be Kilang Meriam) market, barrack, stable etc (excluding barbarian temples)...

A few different are, Malay buildings have many support pillars and not build directly on the ground, if you can add pillars to the buildings, then that's very good! I noticed that large market have pillar and stairs.

Only a few buildings are needed from eastern culture, such as Ottoman-influenced academy, (Madrasah and Maahad have middle-east scholar as patron, so logically they have eastern look) and palm trees to replace coniferous trees...

These are some buildings from Battle of Asia (BoA), maybe it can be made into mosque. Only the grey-bluish roof color not very good, can it be replace with green-brownish color?

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

a) Guard tower, without wall at both side mostly resemble mosque minaret:



b) Temple tower, second choice, if guard tower fail, but minaret not have multiple layers roof from the bottom:



c) Large building:



d) small building:



I think, very large mosque can be made by arranging large building at the center and 4 small building at the corner.

[G. Septimus]

Yes. I have RNJ.

Well, there are theories that Islam came to Malaya from Arab, India and China.... and from China brought by Ming's Envoy Admiral Cheng Ho.

Sabuza: Islam from Umar Chaliphate
Perlak / Samudera : Shiite from Fatimid
Terengganu and Kelantan: From China

and Cheng Ho doesn't have a

[plutoboyz]

so... separate it or merge? I would prefer it separated.

I would suggest:

Roman>European
Hun>Jawi
Eastern>Melayu
Barbarian>Sunda
Nomad>Melayu Tua
African>?

[Nyz]

Personally I also prefer it separated... even between Melaka and Aceh, if it can be separated.... So we can design different set of portrait... Melaka FM wearing destar while Aceh FM wearing Sarik... And I can design different stratmap musics for each faction... Joget for Melaka, Zapin for Aceh, Telempong for Palembang and gamelan for Sriwijaya...

However, culture slots are limited, as I said earlier in our portrait discussion...

We already realized that culture slots are limited in RTW engines, that's the issue and problem happened in all mods, and culture slots are really precious for further expansion of the mod...

I don't think our MOD stop around western Nusantara only... if it's going well, our ambitions are to expand it until Eastern Nusantara, Philippines, Siam, Indo-China..and that's required more culture slots...

And someone said in EB forum:

the engine is just so limited ... limited factions , limited units , limited animations ,limited provinces , limited everything! lol

Hmm, and for Barbarian Temple Battlemap models, I think it can be used for public garden building (Taman Penglipurlara [royal garden] or Pulau Perburuan [royal hunting ground])...

[Cute Wolf]

very much true... and if you argue on separate cultures as well, you could ask Portuguese and VOC as separate because Dutchmen and Portuguese don't get along well

even the Majapahit and demak should get separate set of portaits ... engine limitations...

BTW, plz reply to the name and buildings descriptions in our dev forum, so I could start made the proper starting descr_strat constructions and FMs

[G. Septimus]

very much true... and if you argue on separate cultures as well, you could ask Portuguese and VOC as separate because Dutchmen and Portuguese don't get along well

even the Majapahit and demak should get separate set of portaits ... engine limitations...

BTW, plz reply to the name and buildings descriptions in our dev forum, so I could start made the proper starting descr_strat constructions and FMs

then make the maja[ahit and demak in separate culture. change the banner and slot, again

[Rahwana]

made every sub family in the demak sultanate as separate faction

[Cute Wolf]

and made every independent cities and sub families that feuding each other separate....

oh, back to the main discussion please...

[G. Septimus]

and made every independent cities and sub families that feuding each other separate....

oh, back to the main discussion please...

This is the main Discussion, we're talking about Culture, right?
and we are talking about it!!

[Cute Wolf]

oh dang... howa bout the culture of pirates and independent cities... (pirate faction is romano_british, and independent cities faction is roxolani), I planned to not including ANY rebel settlement except in Australia

[Nyz]

??? do independent cities take 1 culture slot? It is not slave faction?

[Cute Wolf]

??? do independent cities take 1 culture slot? It is not slave faction?

yupz, because we are just using 9 faction slot, and pirates took 1 slot, I actually manage to get rid of those defender script by giving independent cities another faction slot, their skins of units will be identical with those of slaves and pirates though. They will got almost no economy, however, to avoid them for take over the world

*. FYI : defender script are the one that made EB very prone to CTD coz the clone defender...

[Nyz]

Are nowadays Minangkabau not even close to that-time's Sriwijaya?

no. closest to that time sriwijaya are old sriwijaya. old sriwijaya are closest to Chola and Sunda-Galuh.

It seem that Sriwijaya and Sailendra have very close relation, how about put Sriwijaya in Javanese Culture?

[plutoboyz]

puting Sunda on Jawi culture are already far. putting sriwijaya on jawi are Javacentrism. if we put sriwijaya on Jawi, why don't melaka?

on the other hand we can merge sriwijaya and Sunda in one culture, Sunda strait culture. basically Sunda are culturally closer to Malays. it just present day Sunda (I'm not one of them) who closer to Jawa.

[Nyz]

puting Sunda on Jawi culture are already far. putting sriwijaya on jawi are Javacentrism. if we put sriwijaya on Jawi, why don't melaka?

on the other hand we can merge sriwijaya and Sunda in one culture, Sunda strait culture. basically Sunda are culturally closer to Malays. it just present day Sunda (I'm not one of them) who closer to Jawa.

I somewhat agree with you, it seem that Sriwijaya place in Malay Culture make it very hard to us to design the FM portrait and headgear...

How about adding pirates faction in this culture, more factions in a culture make it worth to establish a new one...

[Cute Wolf]

hmm... BTW... converting a culture means more work to do it, and sunda strait culture thingies will made future expansion stunted...

and Hindu-Buddhist resistance in Sumatera actually called themself melayu too, and don't forget that this time "Sriwijaya" also consist of Batak Kingdoms

*. You could alyways argue that this mod's Sriwijaya was pretty much "Sumateran Hindu-Buddhist Kingdoms' Alliance"

[Rahwana]

let me speak in this matter then, everyone could argue that every kingdoms, every factions, and even every royal families, posessed "unique" cultures. While we always try to gave the best approximation of what they are, we can't portay them entirely accurate, because they must be fitted in engine limitations. Portait, is among the first problems, but current portait sets are suficient, and they are not stray too far away (at least I don't forced wolf to gave them roman portaits, for example).

Pajajaran WILL BE INCLUDED IN Jawi culture, and Sriwijayan in Melayu culture, like that or not, that's the best approximation we can get.
And yeah, actually, Sriwijayan army is far closer to Majapahit, depends on horse archery, and had very2 crappy low rank massed infantry.

[Cute Wolf]

oh yeah, liat aja apa yang ada di forum EB sekarang... ada yang bicara kalo secara kultur, luso bukan iberia... yah, mau gimana lagi, emang slot game nya terbatas..... hehehe

[Nyz]

hmm... BTW... converting a culture means more work to do it, and sunda strait culture thingies will made future expansion stunted...

Pajajaran WILL BE INCLUDED IN Jawi culture, and Sriwijayan in Melayu culture, like that or not, that's the best approximation we can get.

oh yeah, liat aja apa yang ada di forum EB sekarang... ada yang bicara kalo secara kultur, luso bukan iberia... yah, mau gimana lagi, emang slot game nya terbatas..... hehehe

Well, plutoboyz, the mod leader and co-leader have spoken and used the veto power.

Never mind that…. We can do what we can to portray faction as accurate as we can within the engine limitation.

These are things I suggested that we can do:

a) Set of unit: A Faction will have a set of military unit of it own. Well, this idea have been rejected because it will make us very hard because we will have hundreds of units to be modeled and skinned, and some units have same level and same stat, only the name change according to native language… and units have limitation in RTW engine too.

b) Different Skin: Same unit that been shared between factions have different skin per faction… let ask the skinner whether they want to make different skin or not….and AFAIK same unit model also have limited skin in RTW engine…

c) FM and Character names: This way we can distinguish faction from faction, as I suggest in our dev forum, Aceh’s FM name will be Teuku, Melaka : Tun, Palembang: Pangeran and Kiyai… I have listed 40 ++ for Melaka and Aceh, all I have to do is list more for Palembang… (and Sriwijaya too)…

d) Buildings Names and description: building names and its description in native language of the faction will distinguish faction from faction too. See example below:

Description for Building

1) Governor house

a) Melaka:

Balai Raya (Village Big Hall)

Kampung (village) is the smallest unit of residential area and headed by Ketua Kampung (village chief). Usually the village residents are big family and appointed the family headman or the eldest as the village chief. Economy of Kampung is based on agriculture.

Balai Raya (Village Big Hall) is the center for the villagers and act as the place where the villagers have meeting and local ceremony. Village headman will administer the village from the village hall.

In Malay history, a big family establishing the village by clearing land and forest. Citizenship at that time was not documented, it is just the village chief will seek permission from local king a noble to stay in that area.

Short Desctiption:

Dato ' Ketua, Balai Raya that was recently built will be the place for meeting of the village residents, local ceremony and village administrative operation.


b) Aceh

Diwan Meucawé Tuha Peut (the Meeting Hall of Tuha Peut)

Gampong (village) is the smallest unit of residential area and headed by Geuchik (village chief). He is assisted by a council of local rulers and Islamic Scholars called Tuha Peut.

Diwan Meucawé Tuha Peut (the Meeting Hall of Tuha Peut) is the center for the Tuha Peut and act as the place where the council have meeting. Tuha Peut will administer the village from the meeting hall.


c) Palembang

Rumah Besak (Big House)

Dusun (village) is the smallest unit of residential area and headed by Kerio (village chief). Usually the village residents are big family and appointed the family headman or the eldest as the village chief. Economy of Kampuang is based on agriculture.

Rumah Besak (Big House) is the center for the villagers and act as the place where the villagers have meeting and local ceremony. Village headman will administer the village from the Big House.

e) Music: Well, in BI, we can set a set of music per faction, but it requires a lot of text work… BTW, I already start collecting traditional and folk songs, especially Malay (Such as Wayang Kulit, Silat, Caklempong, Gamelan, Joget, Zapin music), and ready to provide them for the Mod. Apparently the first release will not include Nusantara’s Music, however it is good to start collecting especially the European Music.

Portraying faction as accurately is our dream; however it will require lot of work… especially option D. Don’t hope a certain faction have a special culture slot, if we cannot fill the inputs even the faction is in shared culture slot…

If we want the faction portrayed accurately, then we have to face it...

@plutoboyz: if you provide lot input of Pajajaran (buildings names and description), it is not Pajajaran will be Javanized, but Majapahit and Bintara will be Sundanized instead...