Town Council being bullied into changing centuries-old tradition

[Louis VI the Fat]

To clarify the relevent point: I have said repeatedly in this thread (including in response to you) that the manner in which the Council is run should be decided by the Council by democratic vote; particularly when there is only one dissenter. In this instance we have a Council which has decided democratically (multiple Councils in point of fact) that they wish to formally say a prayer before opening business. This is democratically decided view of the democratically elected Councillors; it should not be overridden by the National Secular Societ, or anyone else.

In particular, the Courts should not make a habit of interferring in the running of the Executive, we don't use them for that.

A council can not democratically decide the rights of its members, no more than it can democratically decide to send one of its members to death.

Democracy does not mean majority rule, it means virtually the opposite: minority rights, the rule of law, and a reasonable decision making process.


If a council is not willing to abide by what is most probably the law, then it will be taken to court.

[gaelic cowboy]

hmm everyone seems to be invoking typical british tradition on the thread to continue quaint rural traditions etc. Well one tradition they could use in this case is the traditional witch hanging as evidence for this tradition I give you the Bideford chamber of commerce historical section

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Three of Bideford’s inhabitants were amongst the last to be legally hanged in England in the 17th Century

In 1682 a poor elderly woman, Temperance Lloyd, was arrested ‘upon suspicion of having used some magical art, sorcery or witchcraft upon the body of Grace Thomas……..’ The meeting in front of the magistrates took place in Higher Gunstone, whilst Grace’s illness consisted of a ‘griping’ in her ‘belly, stomach and breast.’

Grace Barnes was experiencing fits and Mary Trembles who was loitering outside Grace’s house, was accused of being a witch along with another old woman, Susanna Edwards. Grace was carried to the town hall to give evidence. Mary and Susanna were sent off to join Temperance at Exeter.

At the trial on August 1682 the three ‘very old, decrepit and impotent’ women all pleaded not guilty. All three seemed to have freely confessed to their ‘crimes’ during cross-examination.

They were found guilty and sentenced to be hanged. They were hanged on Friday 25 August 1682 at Heavitree in Exeter. They were among the last people to be executed in England for practicing witchcraft.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

hmm everyone seems to be invoking typical british tradition on the thread to continue quaint rural traditions etc. Well one tradition they could use in this case is the traditional witch burning as evidence for this tradition I give you the Bideford chamber of commerce historical section

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Three of Bideford’s inhabitants were amongst the last to be legally hanged in England in the 17th Century

In 1682 a poor elderly woman, Temperance Lloyd, was arrested ‘upon suspicion of having used some magical art, sorcery or witchcraft upon the body of Grace Thomas……..’ The meeting in front of the magistrates took place in Higher Gunstone, whilst Grace’s illness consisted of a ‘griping’ in her ‘belly, stomach and breast.’

Grace Barnes was experiencing fits and Mary Trembles who was loitering outside Grace’s house, was accused of being a witch along with another old woman, Susanna Edwards. Grace was carried to the town hall to give evidence. Mary and Susanna were sent off to join Temperance at Exeter.

At the trial on August 1682 the three ‘very old, decrepit and impotent’ women all pleaded not guilty. All three seemed to have freely confessed to their ‘crimes’ during cross-examination.

They were found guilty and sentenced to be hanged. They were hanged on Friday 25 August 1682 at Heavitree in Exeter. They were among the last people to be executed in England for practicing witchcraft.

I'm a little confused, there's no talk og burning; and we never burnt witches in any case. We only burned heretics.

[gaelic cowboy]

I'm a little confused, there's no talk og burning; and we never burnt witches in any case. We only burned heretics.

i fixed it reread my earlier post

[Rhyfelwyr]

This whole thing is petty. Having prayers before the meeting is one of these historical quirks, a remnant from a time when nobody considered that some people might actually object to praying - nothing malicious in it. All that needed to be done was for this atheist to go 'hey guys, I really don't like to pray, so could you change this so we can all just have a moment of reflection instead, whether we use it to pray or not'. But instead he has to run to the secular society, which might as well be called the 'society of middle-aged men having a rebellious phase because they're under their wife's whip (I swear this is the case for 90% of people who say they are secular humanists)', and then he uses the funds of some faceless organisation to trample all over what could have been a perfectly reasonable practice if he bothered to compromise.

A council can not democratically decide the rights of its members, no more than it can democratically decide to send one of its members to death.

Democracy does not mean majority rule, it means virtually the opposite: minority rights, the rule of law, and a reasonable decision making process.

I agree.

I would not appeal so much to the democratic argument PVC. This is an issue of fundamental rights, and so it is above any appeal to the democratic process.

hmm everyone seems to be invoking typical british tradition on the thread to continue quaint rural traditions etc. Well one tradition they could use in this case is the traditional witch burning as evidence for this tradition I give you the Bideford chamber of commerce historical section

We were still arresting women for witchcraft during WWII you know...

[gaelic cowboy]

We were still arresting women for witchcraft during WWII you know...

no way man that's gas

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

A council can not democratically decide the rights of its members, no more than it can democratically decide to send one of its members to death.

Democracy does not mean majority rule, it means virtually the opposite: minority rights, the rule of law, and a reasonable decision making process.


If a council is not willing to abide by what is most probably the law, then it will be taken to court.

I suppose I should respond, as I know you'll never apolagise and it is a worthwile point.

The question must be decided democratically in a secular society, the only question is at what level. It MUST NOT be decided by the Courts because this involves three old men deciding the morality for an entire nation.

In a secular society we allow no supreme or other supernatural principle to influence the forming of our Law, while individuals can exercise their personal convictions the State must maintain impartiality. This absolutely deprives the State of the ability to define an "inalienable" rights which are outside the competence of the Demos to legislate, because their is now Higher Power which the State acknowledges who can grant such rights.

So, every "Right" in a secular State must be decided by the majority will of people, and then written into law, if the State claims to enforce a "Right" ordained by some Higher Power then it preferences one particular Higher Power over another and ceases to be secular.

The fact that Rhy agrees with you re-inforces my point, as he probably believes that the right of minorities not to be oppressed is ordained by God.

The fact is Loius, that you are in a Catch 22; invoke an inalienable Right and you allow me to deploy God and we lock horns until the Apocalypse, or you abandon that "right" and allow democratic process to decide the issue.

With regard to the current laws, it is almost certainly a legally mandated requirement to have an act of worship before Council, and even if it isn't it can't be illegal because it is legally mandated that every school has a daily act of worship (a law of which many schools are currently in breach).