Happy Memorial Day Weekend!

[PanzerJaeger]

To those members who are serving or have served in America's military (MRD, Gelatinous Cube , Kukri, etc)....

THANK YOU for your service!

It is my firm belief that America's best and brightest do not occupy our political institutions, our business community, or even academia. They are serving on the front lines in America's armed forces. Not only do we ask them to destroy our enemies; we also ask them to live among them and rebuild their communities. We ask them to be peace keepers and good will ambassadors. We ask them to take fire before responding. Never before have we asked so much of our soldiers, and under the strictest rules of engagement ever imposed on them.

The vast majority of the nation loves you guys and our hearts are with you.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

To all of those who have served or are serving, thank you.

To all of those who died in that service, my "poor power" to thank you cannot be enough, but my thanks and prayers you have.

[Gregoshi]

Well said PJ.

Joshua Chamberlain said the following at the 20th Maine's monument dedication on Little Round Top in Gettysburg:

"In great deeds something abides. On great fields something stays...And reverent men and women from afar...heart-drawn to see where and by whom great things were suffered and done for them, shall come to this deathless field, to ponder and dream; and lo! the shadow of a mighty presence shall wrap them in its bosom, and... the power of the vision pass into their souls."

On Friday I stood on Little Round Top and at The Angle and amongst the graves at the National Cemetary in Gettysburg. Indeed, the shadow of a mighty presence did reveal the power of the vision into my soul. Alas, what it didn't do and couldn't do is reveal the courage within those men - something for which I've tried over the years to understand but always fail to do so. I may not understand the courage, but I am thankful for the sacrifices made by the dead and the living.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Well said PJ.

Joshua Chamberlain said the following at the 20th Maine's monument dedication on Little Round Top in Gettysburg:

"In great deeds something abides. On great fields something stays...And reverent men and women from afar...heart-drawn to see where and by whom great things were suffered and done for them, shall come to this deathless field, to ponder and dream; and lo! the shadow of a mighty presence shall wrap them in its bosom, and... the power of the vision pass into their souls."

On Friday I stood on Little Round Top and at The Angle and amongst the graves at the National Cemetary in Gettysburg. Indeed, the shadow of a mighty presence did reveal the power of the vision into my soul. Alas, what it didn't do and couldn't do is reveal the courage within those men - something for which I've tried over the years to understand but always fail to do so. I may not understand the courage, but I am thankful for the sacrifices made by the dead and the living.

I remember looking out over that little stone wall at The Angle. You cast your gaze outwards across that shallow vale and think about Armistead and his men crossing it in the face of the Union shooters. There is no cover, only the occasional rail fence to slow them down. The Union is behind a pile of rock -- they are protected by a woolen shirt entirely out of step with the heat of a Pennsylvania Summer. They mass of men is so dense that anybody firing their way is more or less bound to hit someone. And they STILL made it to The Angle. Gregoshi has the right of it, I think. A profound sense of awe.

[KukriKhan]

PanzerJaeger: may I steal that paragraph you wrote? I promise to give attribution. We're doing a quiet little ceremony tomorrow at our local memorial, and I think it would be inspirational to our living vets to hear those words from a non-military 20-something Citizen. So we remember that our comrades' sacrifices were and are not in vain.

[PanzerJaeger]

PanzerJaeger: may I steal that paragraph you wrote? I promise to give attribution. We're doing a quiet little ceremony tomorrow at our local memorial, and I think it would be inspirational to our living vets to hear those words from a non-military 20-something Citizen. So we remember that our comrades' sacrifices were and are not in vain.

Sure Kukri. No attribution necessary.

[Reenk Roink]

[Ice]

To those members who are serving or have served in America's military (MRD, Gelatinous Cube , Kukri, etc)....

THANK YOU for your service!

It is my firm belief that America's best and brightest do not occupy our political institutions, our business community, or even academia. They are serving on the front lines in America's armed forces. Not only do we ask them to destroy our enemies; we also ask them to live among them and rebuild their communities. We ask them to be peace keepers and good will ambassadors. We ask them to take fire before responding. Never before have we asked so much of our soldiers, and under the strictest rules of engagement ever imposed on them.

The vast majority of the nation loves you guys and our hearts are with you.

Well said, PJ.

Thank you is all I can say to those who served and died for this country with honor.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Memorial Day now firmly behind us, I've got some criticism.

It is my firm belief that America's best and brightest do not occupy our political institutions, our business community, or even academia. They are serving on the front lines in America's armed forces.

I think you'll find that an overwhelming amount of America's brightest do not work in the frontlines. It is sentimental mythologisation.

Working in the armed forces has the unique aspect of carrying a great risk of dieing while in public service. Even more so than firefighers, or police officers, or discharging explosives (where 'your first mistake will be your last').

The army of a democracy fights on behalf of all, so those that die, or suffer otherwise, in performing their task hence deserve respect.



But I dislike too much respect for the army itself. The army is not the pinnacle of society, not the highest vocation. An army is a killing machine, it is dirty, nasty business in no need of sentimentalism and mystification.

The armed forces attract a wide range of people. Ranging from idealists who want to serve their society in a manner they deem honourable, to unemployed and undereducated bums who couldn't find any other job, to complete psychopaths living their dream of running around in an authoritarian uniform, legitimised in intimidating and commanding around other people, looking for an opportunity to fulfill their fantasy of a violent orgy.
Most volunteers do not join the armed forces out of a unique altruistic willingness to sacrifice. They join because the uniform, the job, the army culture attracts them.

So no, I do not think the armed forces attract the best and brightest (not the worst and least bright either).

Nor are the armed forces deserving of too much respect or a of a unique position in society.
This carries a great risk of a militarisation of society, of political considerations being swayed too much towards military solutions. Nobody likes a North Korea.

Nurses devote themselves to helping others, for their entire lives, to little financial compensation. Some teachers work in miserable circumstances, many of them managing to remain positive, to keep their faith in helping others to become what they can be.
These are heroes.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

... Nor are the armed forces deserving of too much respect or a of a unique position in society.
This carries a great risk of a militarisation of society, of political considerations being swayed too much towards military solutions. Nobody likes a North Korea.

Nurses devote themselves to helping others, for their entire lives, to little financial compensation. Some teachers work in miserable circumstances, many of them managing to remain positive, to keep their faith in helping others to become what they can be.
These are heroes.

While it doesn't materially affect your point, nurses in the USA are compensated pretty well (partly because of scarcity).

I think the difference for me with the military is them going in knowing the level of risk involved. The added chance of me getting killed while selling insurance to people in their homes is so close to the baseline norm that I don't think you could chart it. On the other hand, training accidents etc. mean that ANYBODY going into military service stands a much greater risk of grievous harm and/or death than your average citizen. I do believe therefore that this form of public service warrants a notch more respect than does my county building inspector.

You are correct to the extent that respecting/honoring your military should not segway into a cult of militarism -- that begets evil.

Military service is an honorable calling, and that service is worthy of respect.

[al Roumi]

Thanks MRD, that really was an interesting post. As Kukri says I hope you stay safe and can continue to be good.

[Louis VI the Fat]

I think the difference for me with the military is them going in knowing the level of risk involved. The added chance of me getting killed while selling insurance to people in their homes is so close to the baseline norm that I don't think you could chart it. On the other hand, training accidents etc. mean that ANYBODY going into military service stands a much greater risk of grievous harm and/or death than your average citizen. I do believe therefore that this form of public service warrants a notch more respect than does my county building inspector.

Is respect for public service tied to the level of danger? Should casualty statistics determine the amount of social respect for a civil servant?

And does K the mailman deserve less respect than K the Indomitable Village Slayer?

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Is respect for public service tied to the level of danger? Should casualty statistics determine the amount of social respect for a civil servant?

And does K the mailman deserve less respect than K the Indomitable Village Slayer?

K the mailman has powerful alien friends and saves galaxies....not at all a fair comparison!


Actually, it is my belief that all persons should be accorded respect unless or until they prove themselves unworthy of it. Even then, your self respect and a decent respect for the opinions of others should require you to treat them with social politeness on the rare occasions when you are forced to interact with them.

So my baseline is not: "military folks are worthy of respect whereas other public servants don't really count." Do not attempt to box me in unfairly, cher Louis. It's an argumentation tactic unworthy of you.

In addition, "Village Slayer" is not a title of respect for us New Worlders. We really are a tad more culturally evolved than the typical Germano-Celt barbarian, despite what some of our Old World pals think.

[KukriKhan]

I take Louis' point about honoring but not glorifying the military. What so struck me about PanzerJaeger's OP was this bit:

Not only do we ask them to destroy our enemies; we also ask them to live among them and rebuild their communities. We ask them to be peace keepers and good will ambassadors. We ask them to take fire before responding.

which I thought accomplished that balancing act ('honor, not glorify') rather well. It showed a more full understanding of what we want our military guys to do: overcome our natural dis-inclination to:

-kill other humans
-kill other humans ON COMMAND, and STOP on command
-make peace with former enemies
-actually try to win 'hearts and minds'
-be righteous in our war-making

those are almost impossible tasks to perform, yet we demand they be performed.

And then, when our most useful military skills wane as individuals (around age 35) we demand our soldiers stop being military and start/resume being productive citizens - another almost impossible task, that nevertheless gets performed every day.

So, without being too smarmy, I see both PJ and LtF as being correct, at least as concerns this country I live in: it's right and good to honor the sacrifice of the fallen; it's right and good to respect our war-fighters; it's right and good to demand of our war-fighters the highest standards of conduct and adherence to our core values; and it's right and good that not every citizen be a war-fighter, and that war-fighters eventually return to the position of Citizen.

-signed, K, the mailman

[PanzerJaeger]

Memorial Day now firmly behind us, I've got some criticism.I think you'll find that an overwhelming amount of America's brightest do not work in the frontlines. It is sentimental mythologisation.

I very much appreciate that you held off until after the holiday, sir.

Before I address your points, allow me to restate two important caveats to my statement. I was refering very specifically to America's military forces in contemporary times. Many of your comments would indeed apply to most of today's modern militaries and even the American military of the past.

Now then, "brightest" is of course subjective. To quote Lemur, there are many measures of intelligence. Today's volunteer(selective) American military, and the ideology of pushing responsibility down the chain that it has adopted, requires a level of intelligence far greater than has even been required before. In fact, the average IQ of each branch is significantly higher than the average for the population as a whole.

Certainly engineering a successful counterinsurgency doctrine in the middle of a war that does not involve killing everyone and razing the country took some intelligence from military leadership. And further down the line, your average fighter pilot, intelligence analyst, or nuclear engineer on an aircraft carrier are in fact some of America's most measurably intelligent individuals. And while the "grunts" on the frontline may not be on that level intellectually, they are no slouches either, especially the officers and NCOs. The days of "shut up and follow orders" are long gone. America's soldiers have degrees of operational freedom that would have been unheard of even 50 years ago.

Further, the situational awareness one must possess to lead combat operations under ridiculously strict ROEs, conduct localized diplomacy with tribal elders from cultures completely different than your own, rebuild communities, resolve local disputes, maintain moral, and the million other big and small things today's frontline soldiers are asked to do, all with the ever-present specter of IEDs, suicide bombers, and enemies intermixed with the civilian population, and to do it for 8 years straight, is simply immense.

I am quite confident in my assertion that many of America's soldiers are some of the brightest minds in America - both intellectually and situationally.

But I dislike too much respect for the army itself. The army is not the pinnacle of society, not the highest vocation. An army is a killing machine, it is dirty, nasty business in no need of sentimentalism and mystification.

If only. Things would be so much easier if the military was simply a killing machine, if our boys and girls could destroy everything and everyone and put the pieces back together in whatever way they liked. However, in America's military, killing has been subordinated to peacekeeping, diplomacy, rebuilding, and fostering good will. Fully fledged battles such as Falluja and Marja are the exception; not the rule, and even then ROEs are highly restrictive.

America's modern army does deserve respect, not for its lethality, but for its restraint - and the many role's its soldiers must take on other than simple state sanctioned killing.

Nor are the armed forces deserving of too much respect or a of a unique position in society.
This carries a great risk of a militarisation of society, of political considerations being swayed too much towards military solutions. Nobody likes a North Korea.

I think you must separate the celebration of the military as an institution from honoring the individual soldiers that serve within it. In a mature democracy, I believe most are capable of the latter without society devolving into a North Korean type of situation.

As to your first point, I fully agree.

As to your second point, source please?

Could you specify which point you mean?

[Vladimir]

Once you get past the bleeding heart intro, it's actually an interesting interactive map.

http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/war.casualties/index.html

[Kadagar_AV]

[QUOTE=PanzerJaeger;2497564]To those members who are serving or have served in America's military (MRD, Gelatinous Cube , Kukri, etc)....

THANK YOU for your service!

It is my firm belief that America's best and brightest do not occupy our political institutions, our business community, or even academia. They are serving on the front lines in America's armed forces. Not only do we ask them to destroy our enemies; we also ask them to live among them and rebuild their communities. We ask them to be peace keepers and good will ambassadors. We ask them to take fire before responding. Never before have we asked so much of our soldiers, and under the strictest rules of engagement ever imposed on them.

The vast majority of the nation loves you guys and our hearts are with you.




As to your first point, I fully agree.

As to your second point, source please?