Capo de Tutti Capi - IV [Thoughts and Recommendations]

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Worth pursuing?

What time would it start up?

Thoughts on features?

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Worth pursuing?

Most rhetorical question of all time.

[Double A]

Ok, I know I'm about as active in huge games as a damp cloth, even less so in some, but this would have my full attention.

Assuming it was in the summer and I wasn't in any other mafia games. Then it would just have 98% of my attention.

[johnhughthom]

Most rhetorical question of all time.

Indeed.

[Secura]

I wasn't a member of the forums when the previous three iterations were played, so I'd definitely like to play this one. :3

[pevergreen]

Not to put a damper, but what would make this one special?

Maybe its just my streak of getting killed rather early talking.

(Day 3 or 4 for CDTC 1, first lynch CDTC 2, The Stranger getting me killed in a few nights CDTC 3)

[Sasaki Kojiro]

My survivability has been amazing in those games for some reason. Although, persisting on the mafia side even when promoted to doctor might lead to an unfair early lynch next game.

[KukriKhan]

Things I like about "Tutti"-series:

1) the setting
2) the realism
3) everybody has something to do every day & night, even P.O.T.'s (plain old townies)
4) Seamus' writeups

So: Worth pursuing? Absolutely. I'd be glad to help, in any way needed

What time would it start up? Late summer enough time to construct (August doldrums, maybe)?

Thoughts on features? I'll get back to you.

[Beskar]

The biggest problem is the TIN issue. It seems it is always the same people forming TIN's, and if anyone else attempts to, the old guard attack them for it and stick to their cliques.

[seireikhaan]

Absolutely worth pursuing. Capo has always been an exemplary experience. So long as you feel you're up to it, I'd absolutely say its worth it.

Unsure about timing. First and foremost, what works for you, Seamus? Late summer worked splendidly, in my opinion. However, at the moment, we haven't got a full month slot open until next year, although there might be some shifting around that could be done in winter.

[Askthepizzaguy]

The biggest problem is the TIN issue. It seems it is always the same people forming TIN's, and if anyone else attempts to, the old guard attack them for it and stick to their cliques.

But the inevitability is that when the townies can perform actions, then networks will generally happen, to share information and compliment one another's behavior. And if you try to counter that by force, by removing key elements of the game which allow such behavior, then you basically cripple the entire townie group.

CDTC III would have been a landslide victory for the mafia if there was no TIN... even after hammering the mafia for what was it, 15-16 rounds straight, we hadn't gotten them all.

What may be useful is a very very slight, minor set of changes. I proposed many to Seamus but I don't know if he kept them. But basically, there are some tells that the detective can pick up, like the Don always appears innocent unless he's the only one left in his family. While I appreciate the idea, he should register normally if he's performed a vigilante kill. It's not easy being a Don, so that minor change frees them up.

I had some other good subtle changes which I think would be excellent. But, it is Seamus' game and I don't mind being surprised. I'd be up for it, of course, especially if there are minor changes which prevent the TIN from being so formidible. I still think I'll get bumped off right away so others can have a nice quiet game in peace though, and I won't be surprised about that.


I vote yes on Capo IV.

[Beskar]

But the inevitability is that when the townies can perform actions, then networks will generally happen, to share information and compliment one another's behavior. And if you try to counter that by force, by removing key elements of the game which allow such behavior, then you basically cripple the entire townie group.

I was meaning "I would prefer it wasn't the same old guard I can count on my left hand, I would prefer some one different." in a sense, some of those old guard taking a step backwards.

[Secura]

I was meaning "I would prefer it wasn't the same old guard I can count on my left hand, I would prefer some one different." in a sense, some of those old guard taking a step backwards.

This is essentially the main point I tried to make prior to my election as Naib in Daggers in the Night; while they're very good, valued players, it would be refreshing to see a wider span of arguments and theories. It'd be nice if players looked at all posts in a game, rather than "let's look for the avatar of a dead guy or a grinning samurai", because that's where they know they'll find analysis... anyone else who posts constructively like that is labled as scummy (see Romanic lately, for example).

Sorry to derail the thread further. >.<

[Splitpersonality]

I vote a resounding yes on worthwileness (idc if that's a word or not)

I had a ball playing Capo 3, the writeups, the atmosphere, everything about it is just fantastic, and I would not miss the chance to play in another.

[Crazed Rabbit]

Worth pursuing?

Worth pursuing? Good sir, is air worth breathing? Is water worth drinking? Is food worth eating? Is life worth living? Yes, sir, a thousand times yes.

What time would it start up?

Thoughts on features?

I would repeat what's been said about letting the mafia blend in easier with the townies. In Capo 3 the supposed benefits of made men and dons. Having them show different results to investigation from townies and wiseguys only served to have them be picked out easier. I tried to combat that in The Shadow Fort by having results be similar for investigations of different people, returning info on whether they had killed someone or not, not if they were guilty or innocent. This allowed the townie network to methodically hunt down the mafia. I also wonder if having more than one, or even one, detective is necessary.

Further, I also tried to prevent a relapse of the FBI and CIA from Capo 3, sent to hunt commies, ganging up on the mafia. One way I did this was to make there detective results useful only in finding the people they were hunting.

CR

[TinCow]

Thoughts on features?

Perhaps consider fewer mafia families that are more complex. Three is still a very decent number of families, and the extra scum can go to bulking up the three families instead of making two extra ones.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Perhaps consider fewer mafia families that are more complex. Three is still a very decent number of families, and the extra scum can go to bulking up the three families instead of making two extra ones.

I think that's a good idea--one of the tough things for the mafia is having to recruit before they can kill (often getting outed right at the start of the game). Have three families of 4 would good I think. It also makes it harder for them to ally with each other.

[Reenk Roink]

I'd plan on playing Capo 4 and I'm pretty sure the chat people would come along, dunno when will be the best time for you to start it but late summer sounds nice as Mafia might be a bit more fresh by then too.

Maybe I've been playing too much GTA4 but I think a good idea would be to have families of different strengths at the start. Say one family would be weak with just a don and a made and another would have two mades to start killing immediately. One of the best things about the original Capo was the family solidarity. Unlike Capo 3 where families worked together, the Barzini's steamrolled the other two families first.

Also, for the recruitment, if I understand it, the incorruptible townie was placed in Capo 3 to stop the mass recruitment that happened in the previous game, but what ended up happening is that barely any townies converted, so the reverse situation occurred. Perhaps you might consider a townie/wiseguy who is already affiliated with a family. They are only townie/wiseguy in detective results and ability, but they essentially work for the family as delayed mades, they have to get experience to become deadly. This might be the way to go to differentiate family strength as well, a strong family would have several townie members where a weak one would have nobody.

Of course, one of the beauties of Capo is the normal townie who has a choice on whether to help the town, join a family, or do a bit of both. I generally support the idea of unwilling conversion because it is simpler to manage and doesn't open up a box of other problems, but if there's one game that should do willing conversion, it is Capo.

Also, I don't understand the resentment towards the town network. It is an integral part of Capo, which was the first game to bring it in a large way. It makes the game as a townie a lot more fun and engaging. I wouldn't change a thing, except perhaps take GH's way of protection in PSM where one protection group blocks one and only one kill attempt.

The town network in itself is not at all the reason the Mafia had a tough time in Capo 3, it was the many Mafia deaths early in the game way before the town network was fully consolidated. Add that to the fact that recruitment was thin and the Mafia simply did not have the manpower to defeat the town network.

The families obviously had infiltrated the town network badly and then outplayed it, and that is why the game lasted as long as it did and ratted out people survived for so long, but what could they do with only 1-2 kills per night? How do you bring it down even if you've got the info, if you don't have the manpower?

It takes 3 or 4 townies to do a single action, so a town network can only work when the town vastly outnumbers the Mafia. Given how Seamus sets the initial ratios, it seems quite balanced that way, the Mafia just can't get killed so fast like they did in Capo 3, it made all their good play in the later stages worthless.

[TinCow]

One thing that might be interesting would be to simply shift the focus completely away from town vs. mafia and instead make it all mafia vs. mafia. The name of the game is, after all, Capo de Tutti Capi. When I read that, I think of stuff like this:



The meeting of the five families in Godfather I. Perhaps no one at all is town, and every single player is a mafioso. Don't even bother with the 'innocent townie' roles, just make mafia roles of various ranks which people can climb. The general objective to the game is simply to stop the inevitable carnage, either by having one family eliminate all the others, or by there being a peace agreed by all surviving Dons. This can be made difficult by giving some families vendettas against each other (read: mandatory victory conditions to eliminate another family). Other roles can contribute to make peace difficult, perhaps by allowing families to frame other families for kills and such.

In essence, such a situation would almost be a reverse of the original Capo concept. Instead of townies that can go mafia, the mafia can instead go 'town' by working to stop the killing. The question of whether individual families pursue that objective or go for a unilateral victory could be interesting. Provided that there are enough roles that have to kill to win, there should be enough chaos to make strategic choice of peace versus war an interesting one.

Anyway, just a thought.

[Double A]

Both Reenk and TC's ideas seem just plain awesome... I need to go lie down or else my head might explode...

[Kagemusha]

I still have a large stone in my shoe because of the events in Capo III, that led to the demise of our mafia faction, so i would be more then anxious to have a go once again. Maybe this time i will go pro town.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Maybe this time i will go pro town.

Anyone who says this is automatically lynched round one.

There's no way I will trust a guy who's like... yeah... maybe I'll go for the peaceful victory... yeah... that's the ticket.... *rubs hands evilly*

[Sasaki Kojiro]

I think more wise guys and less VT's could edge the game towards what TinCow described. Mafia vs Mafia vs Mafia vs Town, with each faction having about the same power. The little tweaks of godfather appearing guilty after vig kill, CIA type roles only getting results on their targets, multiple kills overriding protections, etc, would help the balance too.

The fun of capo is that you can get a group of allies together and become a mafia family, no matter what you start as. I think a good tweak would be to allow doctors and detectives to join a family if they wanted too.

To help the town out, it could be changed so that vigging mafia made a townie or wise guy into a rogue detective. Because cop/vig combo is a very appealing role. Rogue detectives would be a pure town role.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

4 mafia families--
Don
Luca
Made
Wise Guy

Mafia start with killing power (but can still protect the don). Choice between having the made investigate and the wise guy infiltrate, or having them team up to to get some early kills and the wise guy promoted--which gives three mades and a chance at recovery if the don goes down.

2 doctors
2 cops
--don't have to be town aligned...mafia movies always have a mafia doctor, and cops on the payroll. They can ally with a family, or play both sides against each other.

I think an SK throws a bit of a random wrench in the works. Or maybe I'm biased since it was the SK who killed LG and dealt a death blow to the mafia...but in the first capo I think it was the SK who knocked out a ton of mafia after allying with the town. They are too much of a wildcard, and if an SK is outed the best tactic is for the town to say--you kill who we want or we lynch you, and then the town gets a vig.

So, the secret role/3rd party faction should be different I think.

That's about like 25 players...divide the rest up 3 wise guys for each townie...it makes the town just another faction rather than the default "you'd better be good!" faction.

[Andres]

One thing that might be interesting would be to simply shift the focus completely away from town vs. mafia and instead make it all mafia vs. mafia. The name of the game is, after all, Capo de Tutti Capi. When I read that, I think of stuff like this:



The meeting of the five families in Godfather I. Perhaps no one at all is town, and every single player is a mafioso. Don't even bother with the 'innocent townie' roles, just make mafia roles of various ranks which people can climb. The general objective to the game is simply to stop the inevitable carnage, either by having one family eliminate all the others, or by there being a peace agreed by all surviving Dons. This can be made difficult by giving some families vendettas against each other (read: mandatory victory conditions to eliminate another family). Other roles can contribute to make peace difficult, perhaps by allowing families to frame other families for kills and such.

In essence, such a situation would almost be a reverse of the original Capo concept. Instead of townies that can go mafia, the mafia can instead go 'town' by working to stop the killing. The question of whether individual families pursue that objective or go for a unilateral victory could be interesting. Provided that there are enough roles that have to kill to win, there should be enough chaos to make strategic choice of peace versus war an interesting one.

Anyway, just a thought.

I think this is a brilliant idea

[Kagemusha]

Anyone who says this is automatically lynched round one.

There's no way I will trust a guy who's like... yeah... maybe I'll go for the peaceful victory... yeah... that's the ticket.... *rubs hands evilly*

The game has not started yet my dear pizza. But once or twice you know a long time a go i actually had few pro town roles in mafia and that was fun.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Last capo pizza swore he was going mafia in the next game.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Last capo pizza swore he was going mafia in the next game.

Which of course means I will go pro-town this time, mwahahah....

But because I am Askthepizzaguy, that's obviously another bluff, so I must be mafia.

Or am I?

[Kagemusha]

Which of course means I will go pro-town this time, mwahahah....

But because I am Askthepizzaguy, that's obviously another bluff, so I must be mafia.

Or am I?

Ok so it will be another heads up from turn one onwards! FOS ATPG!

[Double A]

Hey you're not the guy who asks the questions, we ask you the questions! Read your own name, gosh.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Okay. I'll begin this thing.

PLEASE keep the suggestions coming. When I am revamping things I do look at all sorts of input -- and I had even brainstormed a few of those mentioned above.

The central problems include: preventing a townie group or mafia coalition or new family from forming so easiliy and completely (part of the fun of the game is working to build such, but it shouldn't happen too easily).

A slightly reduced number of families (depending on sign-ups). I really think that I need about 25 people per family, so I'll probably not cap the playing numbers and hope for 125 plus. Not sure I philosophically agree with varied strength families at outset, but perhaps a 4th starter...hmmm.

Good ideas folks. Thanks.

Do I need to formally request a slot on the sign-up list or will announcement here and negotiations herein for a slot suffice?