Israel kills to Maintain Blockade

[Furunculus]

Israel of course claims that it was fired on - but of course they will retract this 3 months down the line in a muttering aside by some minister. Just like the white phosphorous attacks in Gaza, etc.

They want to starve out the Palestinians, and they won't tolerate any interference in this plan.

hmmm, like the massacre in the Jenin camp too i presume?

starve them out where? where to?

[Ser Clegane]

Please note:
This particular incident is likely to lead to a heated discussion
Please focus on arguments and avoid ad hominem attacks directed at other patrons as well as sweeping condescending statements about e.g., specific nationalities, religeous/ethnic groups
Staff will keep a keen eye on this one and apply forum rules rigorously

Thanks

[tibilicus]

And so the Israeli sympathisers are in, let the debate begin!

I'm sorry but even if you are sympathetic to Israel's aims (what ever that is, because I'm a bit lost) this isn't really justifiable. For a start, I don't even know what they hoped to find on board seeming the ship is an aid ship. The chances of there being weapons, or at least a serious armament are seriously low seeming the ship left from Cyprus, a place where I imagine it isn't particularly easy to smuggle weapons from due to the presence of both UN and British forces. I guess they could of been shipped from Turkey but again, that's unlikely. It probably comes down to ill-discipline and poor intelligence on the Israelis part again.

Israel is showing an increasingly hostile attitude to the Palestinians and seems to be moving further and faster to a form of apartheid. Some of you may try and deny this, but don't bother. Arabs within Israel and those in Palestine can't freely walk in certain areas without receiving a hail of abuse, most Israelis despise them. As an Arab you can also look forward to having your house knocked down to make way for a nice new Israeli house. Any one want to justify that? You can't deny it isn't a form of apartheid. Arabs are discriminated against economically and socially.

Perhaps most worrying though is the fact that Israel have shown a profound ability to show a complete disregard for its western allies. The actions of recent years show they don't consult their allies, not even the USA any more, before making key decisions. We talk about Iran as the rouge state but is Israel not the same? If they refuse to show restraint despite international condemnation for their actions time, and time, and time again, how can any one here defend them?

[Andres]

A ruling of the International Cour of Justice in the Hague from July 9, 2004, stated that their famous wall was a violation of international law.

I think it is safe to assume that this attack to ensure that their blockade is maintained, is also a violation of international law. Of course, the UN will do nothing, since Israels' migthy ally has veto power.

Interesting to note that Israel is also among the states that is not a member of International Criminal Court.

[Fragony]

pffffffffffffffft of course they can't just allow direct shipment to Ghaza. Clear case of gambled and lost.

[LeftEyeNine]

So it's rightful to open-fire at a civilian ship and kill in order to prevent the shipment while there is no armed resistance occuring ?

[Fragony]

So it's rightful to open-fire at a civilian ship and kill in order to prevent the shipment while there is no armed resistance occuring ?

No resistance? Says who? Not what I heard.

[Andres]

pffffffffffffffft of course they can't just allow direct shipment to Ghaza. Clear case of gambled and lost.

I think you're missing the point. The blockade violates international law, a fortiori, attacking ships to enforce and maintain the illegal blockade violates international law.

Interesting read for you.

[Furunculus]

And so the Israeli sympathisers are in, let the debate begin!

I'm sorry but even if you are sympathetic to Israel's aims (what ever that is, because I'm a bit lost) this isn't really justifiable. For a start, I don't even know what they hoped to find on board seeming the ship is an aid ship. The chances of there being weapons, or at least a serious armament are seriously low seeming the ship left from Cyprus, a place where I imagine it isn't particularly easy to smuggle weapons from due to the presence of both UN and British forces. I guess they could of been shipped from Turkey but again, that's unlikely. It probably comes down to ill-discipline and poor intelligence on the Israelis part again.

Israel is showing an increasingly hostile attitude to the Palestinians and seems to be moving further and faster to a form of apartheid. Some of you may try and deny this, but don't bother. Arabs within Israel and those in Palestine can't freely walk in certain areas without receiving a hail of abuse, most Israelis despise them. As an Arab you can also look forward to having your house knocked down to make way for a nice new Israeli house. Any one want to justify that? You can't deny it isn't a form of apartheid. Arabs are discriminated against economically and socially.

Perhaps most worrying though is the fact that Israel have shown a profound ability to show a complete disregard for its western allies. The actions of recent years show they don't consult their allies, not even the USA any more, before making key decisions. We talk about Iran as the rouge state but is Israel not the same? If they refuse to show restraint despite international condemnation for their actions time, and time, and time again, how can any one here defend them?

what have i learned in this thread so far:

1. that it is israel's policy to bring ships in for inspection, why was this not done this time?

2. that this aid convoy was running a baton charge against a sovereign nation state, who the hell do they think they are?

3. that the aid group are a bunch of crazy nutters who support hamas, why are we surprised that israel demands to inspect the ship?

4. fourteen people died during the boarding, what the hell were they doing that they could not be peaceably detained?

was israel heavy handed? yes, it rather looks that way.

do i care very much given the character and actions of the convoy? no, not very much.

[Andres]

what have i learned in this thread so far:

1. that it is israel's policy to bring ships in for inspection, why was this not done this time?

2. that this aid convoy was running a baton charge against a sovereign nation state, who the hell do they think they are?

3. that the aid group are a bunch of crazy nutters who support hamas, why are we surprised that israel demands to inspect the ship?

4. fourteen people died during the boarding, what the hell were they doing that they could not be peaceably detained?

was israel heavy handed? yes it rather looks that way.

do i care very much given the character and actions of the convoy? not very much.

You missed the part about boarding a ship in international waters, using force. No, you didnt miss it. Must learn to read entire post first before replying. Shame on me

When that happens near Somalia, people call it piracy, are outraged and some even cheer when the pirates are being shot at or left alone in a rowing boat in the middle of the ocean

You can ignore it as much as you want, but Israel committed an international crime here, no more, no less.

Not so long ago you said "pirate=dead... good". Do you want to see these Israeli soldiers dead? Or did you change your mind about piracy and do you know think it should be allowed. Or do I smell hypocrisy and double standards?

[Furunculus]

You missed the part about boarding a ship in international waters, using force. No, you didnt miss it. Must learn to read entire post first before replying. Shame on me

When that happens near Somalia, people call it piracy, are outraged and some even cheer when the pirates are being shot at or left alone in a rowing boat in the middle of the ocean

You can ignore it as much as you want, but Israel committed an international crime here, no more, no less.

when it is piracy, i get all outraged, when it is a blockade runner to a hostile power from a organisation known to support that hostile power, and when they immediately put up a fight that results in the use of deadly force, i tend to be a bit more sanguine about the use of international waters.

i don't get much of a hard-on about international law.

[Centurion1]

Contrary to popular belief the us is not in fact israels lap dog. How many wars have we entered on their side?

[Andres]

Contrary to popular belief the us is not in fact israels lap dog.

Really?

A History of U.S. Vetoes


There is another major area, largely ignored, that at some point must be faced. It involves the serious distortion of the official Security Council record by the profligate use by the United States of its veto power. In 29 separate cases between 1972 and 1991, the United States has vetoed resolutions critical of Israel. Except for the U.S. veto, these resolutions would have passed and the total number of resolutions against Israel would now equal 95 instead of 66.
These resolutions would have broadened the record by affirming the right of Palestinian self-determination, by calling on Israel to abandon its repressive measures against the Palestinian intifada, by sending U.N. Observers into the occupied territories to monitor Israel's behavior and, most serious, by imposing sanctions against Israel if it did not abide by the Council's resolutions.
Such a list of resolutions passed and resolutions vetoed is unparalleled in United Nations history. The list in itself forms a stunning indictment of Israel's unlawful and uncivilized actions over a period of 45 years and of America's complicity in them.
Yet references to this damning record are totally absent from the vocabularies of American leaders as they go about saying they are seeking peace. If they are really serious about peace, then at some point they must act with the same firmness they displayed toward Iraq's occupation of Kuwait. Had they approached Iraq with the same timorous tactics they are applying to Israel, Iraqi soldiers still would be in Kuwait. The point is that aggressors have always answered the question of whether they want peace by their actions. If the United States really wants peace in the Middle East, it must insist that Israel abide by the judgment of the world community as expressed in resolutions by the United Nations. The U.S. can do this at any time simply by forsaking the use of the veto and joining the world consensus. Anything less makes a sham of the peace process, and is demeaning to leaders of a democratic country.

But that's '93 you say?

Here you go:

The US, a staunch ally to Israel, has so far vetoed over 40 anti-Israeli resolutions sought by the council since 1972.

Since 2004, Washington has prevented the adoption of four other resolutions that called for Tel Aviv to halt its operations in the Gaza Strip.

[LeftEyeNine]

Contrary to popular belief the us is not in fact israels lap dog. How many wars have we entered on their side?

I wonder how Israel was founded, maintained and defended up to now ? Is it really such a far country from here ?

[Fragony]

what have i learned in this thread so far:

1. that it is israel's policy to bring ships in for inspection, why was this not done this time?

2. that this aid convoy was running a baton charge against a sovereign nation state, who the hell do they think they are?

3. that the aid group are a bunch of crazy nutters who support hamas, why are we surprised that israel demands to inspect the ship?

4. fourteen people died during the boarding, what the hell were they doing that they could not be peaceably detained?

was israel heavy handed? yes, it rather looks that way.

do i care very much given the character and actions of the convoy? no, not very much.

God allmighty on a plane at least someone gets it.

[Ronin]

Preditions for the next steps.

1- Turkey invokes Nato's mutual assistance clause...
2- This means Germany has a legal cover to attack Israel.
3- see where this is going?...did I just blow your mind?
4- I've got my popcorn ready....do you? :P

[tibilicus]

what have i learned in this thread so far:

1. that it is israel's policy to bring ships in for inspection, why was this not done this time?

2. that this aid convoy was running a baton charge against a sovereign nation state, who the hell do they think they are?

3. that the aid group are a bunch of crazy nutters who support hamas, why are we surprised that israel demands to inspect the ship?

4. fourteen people died during the boarding, what the hell were they doing that they could not be peaceably detained?

was israel heavy handed? yes, it rather looks that way.

do i care very much given the character and actions of the convoy? no, not very much.

Don't get me wrong, it would be completely justifiable if the Israelis were checking the ships within their own territorial waters, the point is, they didn't. Seeming your only seeing this from one side, imagine this. Your on a boat late at night and all of a sudden you see helicopters above and armed men rappelling down onto your ship. How would you react in said situation Furunculus?

There's a right way and a wrong way to check ships, this was most certainly wrong. Just to clarify, my position is against the way this deplorable operation was carried out. I have absolutely no problem with Israel checking incoming ships within their own water and doing so in a way which doesn't alarm those on board.

[LeftEyeNine]

19, by the Israeli press, or 10, by the Israeli army, civilians are claimed to be murdered of whom 9 are Turks.

The civilian aid ships destined to Gaza were attacked by Israeli army with troopers offloaded from helicopters in international waters.

While, at the same time there has been a terrorist attack in Iskenderun, town of the Hatay county, closest city to Syria and Israel, killing 6 Turkish soldiers on duty, presumably committed by Israeli-educated and supplied PKK.

Israel, as a state, is no less sicker than North Korea -definitely violent at all terms considering nothing when it comes to anything related to Palestine.

One can not imagine they represent the sufferers of the Holocaust. Offensive phrase removed by moderator.

[Louis VI the Fat]

19, by the Israeli press, or 10, by the Israeli army, civilians are claimed to be murdered of whom 9 are Turks.

The civilian aid ships destined to Gaza were attacked by Israeli army with troopers offloaded from helicopters in international waters.

While, at the same time there has been a terrorist attack in Iskenderun, town of the Hatay county, closest city to Syria and Israel, killing 6 Turkish soldiers on duty, presumably committed by Israeli-educated and supplied PKK.

Israel, as a state, is no less sicker than North Korea -definitely violent at all terms considering nothing when it comes to anything related to Palestine.

One can not imagine they represent the sufferers of the Holocaust. removed

Meh, I'm not a fan of Israel's gung-ho attitude, but this armada got precisely what it was looking for.

The whole point of the exercise was to provoke Israel, to pit 'unarmed' activists against the Israeli army, by trying to break the blockade with an armada of ships.

Well done to the activists, Israeli-Turkish relations are strained beyond repair.

[Andres]

Meh, I'm not a fan of Israel's gung-ho attitude, but this armada got precisely what it was looking for.

The whole point of the exercise was to provoke Israel, to pit 'unarmed' activists against the Israeli army, by trying to break the blockade with an armada of ships.

Well done to the activists, Israeli-Turkish relations are strained beyond repair.

Sometimes, a provocation is needed to get attention. This blockade must stop.

They don't have jurisdiction in international waters and this can be treated as pure piracy by international courts.

If only big countries would recognise the ICC, then that court could be made competent to handle this case of piracy... It would help if Israel would also recognise it.

[LeftEyeNine]

Oh and that brings up another face of the diamond, Louis.

We've got a Islamist government run dominantly by the single party, AKP for 8 years now since 2002.

These guys are "fans of Palestinians" and it's Turkey where since 2007, 134 workers have died - and been dying on a nearly monthly basis- in Tuzla shipyard and there is nothing fixed ever since. It's Turkey where 19 mining workers have died in a mine 2 weeks ago of whom our prime minister spoke "this is not the first time a mining accident happening".

Considering this "fandom" along with the bitter situation of which caring for your very own citizens is "less favorable", this could have been avoided. But it's all politics right now and things get stuck when we presume "what if the government alignment had nothing to do with Palestinians ?".

It still is another murder show demonstrated by Israel, other than building up that wall, knocking down homes, committing genocide by trying to starve out Palestinians and not letting the patients to be treated and whole world will be watching it with "official disapproval of the incidents" flying around thanks to the Big "Uncle Sam" Israel's sickening power.

Change the sides and let Israel be Iran instead. I'd love to see that nuclear-sized hypocrisy. Same people, let alone gov'ts, would be saying "oh such a shame, this is a direct assault on humanity and should not go unpunished ! Long live Israel and the dead free people of Iran !".

Bleh.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Oh and that brings up another face of the diamond, Louis.

We've got a Islamist government run dominantly by the single party, AKP for 8 years now since 2002.

These guys are "fans of Palestinians" and it's Turkey where since 2007, 134 workers have died - and been dying on a nearly monthly basis- in Tuzla shipyard and there is nothing fixed ever since. It's Turkey where 19 mining workers have died in a mine 2 weeks ago of whom our prime minister spoke "this is not the first time a mining accident happening".

Considering this "fandom" along with the bitter situation of which caring for your very own citizens is "less favorable", this could have been avoided. But it's all politics right now and things get stuck when we presume "what if the government alignment had nothing to do with Palestinians ?".

It still is another murder show demonstrated by Israel

All of this, yes. I think I agree. Murderous show by Israel, but let's not forget who sought to have these activists killed -at least pitted in direct confrontation with Israel - and to what political intent.

[Fragony]

let's not forget who sought to have these activists killed -at least pitted in direct confrontation with Israel - and to what political intent.

That as well. If they would have unloaded in Israel so the goods could be inspected none of this would have happened.

edit not missing the point, they left them no other choice. This is a war.

[PanzerJaeger]

removed by mod.

Absolutely disgusting. Your green font will shield you from getting the slap from the mods that you deserve, but it shouldn't.

As for the topic, you reap what you sow. These agitators were looking for a fight and they found one.

And rather than reporting it to the moderators, you decided to publicly lambast him and potentially worsen things. Poor choice sir.

[HoreTore]

Absolutely disgusting. Your green font will shield you from getting the slap from the mods that you deserve, but it shouldn't.

As for the topic, you reap what you sow. These agitators were looking for a fight and they found one.

Yeah..... Agitators like Holocaust survivor Hedy Epstein, or famous novelist Henning Mankel?

[LeftEyeNine]

Unarmed civilians on a civilized ship get attacked by Israeli army and end up dead, therefore my expressions are disgusting ?

I can't really compete with neo-connazism when it comes to being disgusting. Your even-worse attempt crowned with "ooooh mods got shieldz" argument had expired in some warez forum long ago. Please renew.

[PanzerJaeger]

Unarmed civilians on a civilized ship get attacked by Israeli army and end up dead, therefore my expressions are disgusting ?

As usual, Seamus is infinitely wiser than myself, so I'll just say that your comment, and doubling back to defend it, speaks volumes towards your character and let it go.

http://www.nrk.no/nyheter/verden/1.7147093

Not the most peaceful "aid flotilla" apparently.

This should put to rest any claims of these being "peaceful, humanitarian civilians". This should also serve as a lesson to other Turks looking in the future to meddle in, err, "peacefully protest" other nation's affairs. When you attack and beat people viciously with iron pipes who happen to be holding guns, you're going to get shot.

[Fragony]

Screw the holocaust, the one who did it are dead or barely alive. The ones who would gladly give it another try aren't. Lefties believe every word Hamas says except when they say they want to whipe Israel from the face of the earth. You got it all wrong. Phrase removed. Sweeping characterizations of religions are not permitted, as Ser Clegane noted above. Keep it clean folks.