Israel kills to Maintain Blockade

[Incongruous]

Their democratic election isn't relevant here, not so long as they officially state that they want to wipe a country of the face of the earth, then bitch when that same country refuses to let supplies get to them!

As for the bigger picture, it is complicated, far from black and white. As I said earlier, Palestine was a backwater long before either the Zionists or the 'Palestinians' as we call the various Arab economic migrants today arrived. These people in Gaza aren't the original Palestinian people you know, they weren't kicked off their land during the initial creation of the Israeli state. As I said earlier, Palestine was a backwater before the Jews and the Arabs which we call 'Palestianians' today arrived, and both the native Jews/Muslims actually identified as Palestianian.

The idea of Zionists v the purely Muslim Palestinians is a quite modern concept, a hostility which exploded over time and had not been there initially. In many ways it is similar to the situation with Scots settlers in Ireland, people forget how much they integrated with the native population for several decades, and then suddenly ethnic violence came out of nowhere.

Having spent the greater part of the year in reasearching for my thesis, upon the history of Palestine in the modern era, I can say that you are talking complete bollocks. A backwater... right, so try and explain away the ardent romantic nationalism of what may be termed the elite of Palestinian society in the early 20th century and why the felaheen were such ardent supporters of their rights as the inhabiatants of Palestine. Religion, it may surprise you was not such a divisive factor in these early years of what one may term Palestinian identity, many of the leading figures of the movement were not Muslim, or even religious.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Always a thorny subject.


Did Israel fall into the same old trap -- almost certainly. Any of you who think that there are no parties with a vested interest in maintaining the status quo -- constant low grade warfare -- are being far too positive in your outlook. This group wanted to get aid to Gaza or an international incident. They did. In addition, there are elements in Israel who want things to continue as they are. I am fairly certain that a majority of both the Palestinians and Israelis (you know, the bog standard types who'd like to see their kids grow up, make a few dollars, and play with the grand kids) would love to see a reasonable compromise deal brokered -- but those are not the voices that can be heard when violence such as this occurs.

The USA has always worked to further what it perceives to be in its best interests, though we sometimes have trouble defining those. Are these interests likely to be informed by realpolitik as well as (or sometimes in place of) principles and higher moral goals? The unshocking answer is: of course.

For years I have suspected that this state of low grade war will continue and worsen until Israel is brought, at last, to the real choice. A pogromatic removal of the Palestinians or the assimiliation of Israel into a Palestine dominated by Palestinian arabs. A beautiful lose-lose scenario for Israel.

[KukriKhan]

For years I have suspected that this state of low grade war will continue and worsen until Israel is brought, at last, to the real choice. A pogromatic removal of the Palestinians or the assimiliation of Israel into a Palestine dominated by Palestinian arabs. A beautiful lose-lose scenario for Israel.

Dear Seamus: In the deepest, darkest corner of what once passed for my "military mind", I have held the same predictive thought. Let's hope that brighter guys than you or I figure out some better way, because with alliances and national interests being what they are, and are likely to be in future, it's actually lose-lose for the Palestinians as well.

[Beskar]

Why not simply merge both nations?There are many incidents of Israeli cities working together in harmony with arabic population. The solution is simple. remove the imaginary lines between the countries, and the solution will begin to solve itself.

[Lemur]

To quote Will Smith, "This **** just got real."

Holy Sweet Lord, Turkey has announced they will send another flotilla to Gaza—escorted by the Turkish Navy!

If they actually do this, it is the very definition of throwing down.

Wow.

Does Israel want a war with Turkey? They can’t win it, short of using nukes, and Turkey is a NATO member, if Israel attacks NATO ships, Turkey can invoke Article V (in fact, they can invoke it already, since the ships were attacked by a non NATO power on the high seas.) If Turkey does so, of course NATO nations will refuse, but doing so will break NATO.

This is high stakes.

Update: I might add that in the case of a war between Turkey and Israel, if Turkey is serious, unless Israel uses nukes, my money is on the Turks. They have a huge armored corp, and the nations between Israel and Turkey aren’t going to say no if Turkey asks for access (because if they do, Turkey will just roll right through them.) Also if Turkey and Israel goes to war, it’s at least 50/50 the Egypt jumps in as well.

Israel is really playing with fire on this one.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

That pressure/huminatarian groups will be doing cartwheels of joy if this actually comes to pass. They'll establish the precedent that breaks the blockade AND leaves Israel will almost all of the mud from the mud-slinging portion. Wow.

Lemur, I don't think any of your worst case musings are likely to come to pass -- but they're not impossible either. High stakes indeed.

[Lemur]

Lemur, I don't think any of your worst case musings are likely to come to pass -- but they're not impossible either. High stakes indeed.

Oh, don't give me credit where none is due; I'm just reposting from a blog I read, which I tried to make clear with the link and the identation. Here's the original.

[PanzerJaeger]

Update: I might add that in the case of a war between Turkey and Israel, if Turkey is serious, unless Israel uses nukes, my money is on the Turks. They have a huge armored corp, and the nations between Israel and Turkey aren’t going to say no if Turkey asks for access (because if they do, Turkey will just roll right through them.)

Oh boy. I hope the Turkish leadership is more aware of the limitations of their military than this blogger is.

The NATO aspect is very interesting, though.

[Lemur]

Yes, obviously the notion of Turkey "rolling through" several of its neighbors on its way to spank the Israelis is purely fictive. More ruminations here:

The incident also wrecks Israeli relations with Turkey, historically an Israeli ally in the Muslim world with longstanding military cooperation with Israel. The Turkish government undoubtedly has wanted to move away from this relationship, but it faced resistance within the Turkish military and among secularists. The new Israeli action makes a break with Israel easy, and indeed almost necessary for Ankara. [...]

This maneuver was far more effective than suicide bombings or the Intifada in challenging Israel’s public perception and therefore its geopolitical position (though if the Palestinians return to some of their more distasteful tactics like suicide bombing, the Turkish strategy of portraying Israel as the instigator of violence will be undermined).

Israel is now in uncharted waters. It does not know how to respond. It is not clear that the Palestinians know how to take full advantage of the situation, either. But even so, this places the battle on a new field, far more fluid and uncontrollable than what went before. The next steps will involve calls for sanctions against Israel. The Israeli threats against Iran will be seen in a different context, and Israeli portrayal of Iran will hold less sway over the world.

And this will cause a political crisis in Israel. If this government survives, then Israel is locked into a course that gives it freedom of action but international isolation. If the government falls, then Israel enters a period of domestic uncertainty. In either case, the flotilla achieved its strategic mission. It got Israel to take violent action against it. In doing so, Israel ran into its own fist.

[Fragony]

Why not simply merge both nations?There are many incidents of Israeli cities working together in harmony with arabic population. The solution is simple. remove the imaginary lines between the countries, and the solution will begin to solve itself.

What makes you think the Palestinians want their own state.

And was it all really a mistake or a big 'screw you'. International law is a place where Iran gets to lecture us on human rights.

edit well well well, hi ISS what are you doing on that other humanitarian ship. And what's on board.

Also, what happened on board http://www.dumpert.nl/mediabase/9706..._hulpboot.html

[Tellos Athenaios]

Or an act of war: you see even if Lemur's tidbits from various blogs may not be quite to Panzer's standards there's still the odd nugget of a link. In casu a former British ambassador to Uzbekistan who offers his opinion on what the actual consequences are under international law/law of the sea: http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archiv...gal_posit.html

Basically: it is either murder on Turkish soil falling under Turkish jurisdiction, or an act of warfare on Turkey... Incidentally: if it was an act of warfare on Turkey, it follows it also was an act of warfare on the USA for some of the assaulted ships are flagged under the USA (thus USA soil when on the high seas), not to mention the other countries whose ships were boarded...

Not that it will be taken as such in all likelihood; but hearty food for thought nonetheless.

[Furunculus]

Having just watched the video of the boarding i have revised my previous conclusion that israel had probably responded disproportionately:

I now have zero issue with the israeli response to what was extreme resistance to the boarding party.

My sympathies lie almost exclusively with the injured israeli soldiers, with perhaps some tiny spark of sympathy for the useful idiots who may have been caught in the crossfire between the soldiers and the nutcases wielding iron-bars and fire-bombs.

[Andres]

Having just watched the video of the boarding i have revised my previous conclusion that israel had probably responded disproportionately:

I now have zero issue with the israeli response to what was extreme resistance to the boarding party.

My sympathies lie almost exclusively with the injured israeli soldiers, with perhaps some tiny spark of sympathy for the useful idiots who may have been caught in the crossfire between the soldiers and the nutcases wielding iron-bars and fire-bombs.

There's still the small matter of boarding ships in international waters, where Israel has no authority whatsoever.

So, if victims of pirates use a crowbar and a screwdriver against their attackers, then you say the victims had it coming, asked for their ships being boarded by pirates and shouldn't complain about being killed? Funny how you try to turn the world upside down in a fruitless attempt to justify this act.

[Husar]

Piracy in international waters, armed thugs board a ship, heroic crew tries to resist, 9 heroes die, pirates get away.
Guess it's time to send the Russians so they can shoot a hole into these pirate ships and let the vermin try to swim back to the coast, right?

On a more serious note, I think the Israelis completely overreacted, no matter what the crew did, 9 people died because Israel didn't want them to get into Gaza.
I agree with my government that there should be an independent investigation, but I still think this looks very much like Israel playing Middle Eastern macho again to get what they want.

[Subotan]

Ship carrying civilians attempts to run past blockade on the Palestinian coast; thugs board ship and kill innocent people, sparking worldwide sympathy for the civilian cause.

[Ironside]

Seeing the video at the BBC: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/mid...t/10199480.stm

I can say with good confidence that if a US police officer found himself in a similar situation on land (surrounded and being attacked by people with weapons) they would have opened fire as well.

And seeing the way the 'humanitarian activists' reacted, I can't say I'm overwhelmed with grief. What do you expect when you attack soldiers with guns?

CR

So next time there's a riot with less than a hundred people in the US we're expecting to see casualities?

I'm really curious who it was that thought that sending down troops one and one into an aggressive crowd was a good idea. And should be interesting if pictures of the actual shooting gets released, since it's obvious that the Israeli forces got them.

About the location. Judging from the newpaper picture, the last known location before the attack was about 70 km from the coast. The territorial water is 22 km wide.

[PanzerJaeger]

There's still the small matter of boarding ships in international waters, where Israel has no authority whatsoever.

So, if victims of pirates use a crowbar and a screwdriver against their attackers, then you say the victims had it coming, asked for their ships being boarded by pirates and shouldn't complain about being killed? Funny how you try to turn the world upside down in a fruitless attempt to justify this act.

So your theory is that these ships weren't headed for Gaza at all? Maybe they were on their way to Hawaii and got turned around? Because that is the only way your pirate analogy works.

[Furunculus]

Q: Is it locked in concrete, dead certain, everyone agrees, that this action took place in "International Waters", and not Israeli Territorial Waters, or its (Israel's) Contiguous Zone, or Exclusive Economic Zone?

All those zones, defined by international Maritime Law, represent various levels (and distances from the shoreline) of rights of sea control to sovereign nations. We should take care in throwing around the term "International Waters", and therefore asserting International judgment rights, when those jurisdictions are not clear in this case.

All that said: my condolences to the dead and their relatives. That better, less-violent methods of enforcing blockades couldn't be found is a shame. I had come to think that the Israeli military had come closer to conducting this kind of action casualty-free. Wishful thinking, I guess - not reality. If they were fired upon as they report, why do we not see Israeli wounded among the injured?

your question is looking remarkably prescient, it would appear that the boarding happened inside Israel's EEZ:

http://www.paltelegraph.com/columnis...kish-stand-off
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread577130/pg85
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exclusive_Economic_Zone

which may make the whole international-waters argument less clear cut.

to be honest, i would be surprised if israel made a mistake that elementary...........

[Furunculus]

There's still the small matter of boarding ships in international waters, where Israel has no authority whatsoever.

So, if victims of pirates use a crowbar and a screwdriver against their attackers, then you say the victims had it coming, asked for their ships being boarded by pirates and shouldn't complain about being killed? Funny how you try to turn the world upside down in a fruitless attempt to justify this act.

no, i just decided to wait out the facts before i decided to get my knickers in a twist:

Q: Is it locked in concrete, dead certain, everyone agrees, that this action took place in "International Waters", and not Israeli Territorial Waters, or its (Israel's) Contiguous Zone, or Exclusive Economic Zone?

All those zones, defined by international Maritime Law, represent various levels (and distances from the shoreline) of rights of sea control to sovereign nations. We should take care in throwing around the term "International Waters", and therefore asserting International judgment rights, when those jurisdictions are not clear in this case.

* is curious too *

[Andres]

So your theory is that these ships weren't headed for Gaza at all? Maybe they were on their way to Hawaii and got turned around? Because that is the only way your pirate analogy works.

What I'm saying is that Israel handled this as clumsy as possible. They should have boarded the ships in their territorial waters, not in international waters. You may not like it, but by boarding those ships in international waters, using force, they violated international law.

[Slyspy]

Of course the fact remains that Israel as alienated its only Muslim ally, all be it one which is becoming increasingly islamist (Ataturk must be spinning in his grave). All for nothing.

[rory_20_uk]

What I'm saying is that Israel handled this as clumsy as possible. They should have boarded the ships in their territorial waters, not in international waters. You may not like it, but by boarding those ships in international waters, using force, they violated international law.

I think that was intentional.

Israel is just showing everyone what it thinks of the International community. It pays no more than lip service and basically does whatever it wants.

To prevent another Holocaust of Jews and price of Gentile life or suffering is permitted.

[Furunculus]

What I'm saying is that Israel handled this as clumsy as possible. They should have boarded the ships in their territorial waters, not in international waters. You may not like it, but by boarding those ships in international waters, using force, they violated international law.

Exclusive. Economic. Zone.

Article58

3. In exercising their rights and performing their duties under this Convention in the exclusive economic zone, States shall have due regard to the rights and duties of the coastal State and shall comply with the laws and regulations adopted by the coastal State in accordance with the provisions of this Convention and other rules of international law in so far as they are not incompatible with this Part.

Article73

1. The coastal State may, in the exercise of its sovereign rights to explore, exploit, conserve and manage the living resources in the exclusive economic zone, take such measures, including boarding, inspection, arrest and judicial proceedings, as may be necessary to ensure compliance with the laws and regulations adopted by it in conformity with this Convention.

[rory_20_uk]

The waters are not those of Israel - they're Gazan waters.

[Sigurd]

your question is looking remarkably prescient, it would appear that the boarding happened inside Israel's EEZ:

http://www.paltelegraph.com/columnis...kish-stand-off
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread577130/pg85
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exclusive_Economic_Zone

which may make the whole international-waters argument less clear cut.

to be honest, i would be surprised if israel made a mistake that elementary...........

Just to make things perfectly clear. the Economic Zone is not the same as territorial waters.
The EEZ can be a 200 miles zone where Israel has exclusive economic interests. The territorial barrier is only 12 miles from shore.
The ships were at least 65 miles from the shore when attacked and therefore in international waters.
(The Israeli has declared a 68 mile security zone, but this is an illegal act according to maritime laws)
The international convention of the seas state that you can't attack flag bearing ships unless you carry the same flag - i.e. Israeli ships can only attack other Israeli ships outside the 12 mile territorial water zone (war between nations is exempted).

And this is not an act of war as there were only civilian ships in the flotilla. So NATO is not invoked in this. Turkey can however act on itself.

They are claiming an act of self defense, but the location of the ships indicates an act of aggression.
IMO a very amateurish display of such. These are supposed to be commandos. I doubt it.
Its as if the Israeli wanted to be beat up on camera. I am very confused at the decision of dropping soldiers one by one onto a deck full of people. I mean... this was a ship with how many passengers?

[rory_20_uk]

Ship carrying civilians attempts to run past blockade on the Palestinian coast; thugs board ship and kill innocent people, sparking worldwide sympathy for the civilian cause.

It is "find a borderline related story and then write an inaccurate title about it" day?

Having read the article, it talks about a fight breaking out where people were injured. A british officer said it could have been worse - teargas might have been required! Isralis went in with stun grenades, teargas and live ammo...

[LeftEyeNine]

Another detail we come to see thanks to the thread:

Warmonging before your gaming consoles is the new hobby of the gym-pumped rifle-poser softie.

Teach Turks a lesson ! AIIEEEEEEEYAY !

First of all, such a scenario ends up a war of worldwide scale since the "starring" actors are the flag carriers of the silent polarization that inherits cold-war era stances as well as the newly developed religiously-devoted yet actually political-oriented anti-american and anti-zionist movement.

It's no wonder how our luvley unkle gets himself trapped in mud over and over 'cause apparently it somehow maintains an endless stream of warmongers. Intellectuality has nothing to do with level of welfare over there across this continent. Somebody out there is still wishing for his very own citizens to get choked in Middle East just as they did in Vietnam and Iraq.

Sorry to disappoint you but the people this surrounding has raised are so hard-skinned -ridiculously, thanks to G8 meddlings here- that they may be failing at everything else but they fight well. If they can't do it, they can blow themselves up. Bitter fact about ones that ain't got much to lose.

Anyway, even the "I'm-so-neutral"ists were looking for an excuse to turn their pro-in-advance faces on. As soon as we got shots of Israeli troops landing on the civilian ship in international waters, "oh look how they deserve to die" monging popped up.

Is this how your lovely democracies were rubbed in face of us in the very first chance ? Is this the first time on earth some professional and organized security force encounters an angry mob ? Have we re-furnished your understanding of humanism with "go for the kill if they're angry" kind of handling ? If professionals act so, and out of their national waters, what can you expect out of ones in the streets ? Looking out of your window (ref: "what did you expect Israel to do ?"): Seriously, what kind of reaction did you expect to see when those people saw Israeli troopers being offloaded onto their ships ?

Keep it honest please. If you're pro-Israel, you don't have to hide behind the curtain, 'cause your Israel flag slippers can still be seen.

You've lost your sense for value of human life. But I say, screw it, you got your God of War 4 on PS3 coming anyway. We will keep on suffering your neo-connazi-run governments' policies. Bonus: A lot of your citizens included in the suffering.

[Furunculus]

Just to make things perfectly clear. the Economic Zone is not the same as territorial waters.
The EEZ can be a 200 miles zone where Israel has exclusive economic interests. The territorial barrier is only 12 miles from shore.
The ships were at least 65 miles from the shore when attacked and therefore in international waters.
(The Israeli has declared a 68 mile security zone, but this is an illegal act according to maritime laws)
The international convention of the seas state that you can't attack flag bearing ships unless you carry the same flag - i.e. Israeli ships can only attack other Israeli ships outside the 12 mile territorial water zone (war between nations is exempted).

And this is not an act of war as there were only civilian ships in the flotilla. So NATO is not invoked in this. Turkey can however act on itself.

They are claiming an act of self defense, but the location of the ships indicates an act of aggression.
IMO a very amateurish display of such. These are supposed to be commandos. I doubt it.
Its as if the Israeli wanted to be beat up on camera. I am very confused at the decision of dropping soldiers one by one onto a deck full of people. I mean... this was a ship with how many passengers?

just so we are really, really, clear:

Article58

3. In exercising their rights and performing their duties under this Convention in the exclusive economic zone, States shall have due regard to the rights and duties of the coastal State and shall comply with the laws and regulations adopted by the coastal State in accordance with the provisions of this Convention and other rules of international law in so far as they are not incompatible with this Part.

Article73

1. The coastal State may, in the exercise of its sovereign rights to explore, exploit, conserve and manage the living resources in the exclusive economic zone, take such measures, including boarding, inspection, arrest and judicial proceedings, as may be necessary to ensure compliance with the laws and regulations adopted by it in conformity with this Convention.

if it turns out that this didn't happen in the Israeli EEZ, then fair enough.

if it turns out that the above stipulations don't cover this particular situation, then fair enough.

but until the above questions are addressed I am merely getting bored with flappy-hand blustery accusations of piracy and acts of war.

[Andres]

Exclusive. Economic. Zone.

The point being?

Your quote:

The coastal State may, in the exercise of its sovereign rights to explore, exploit, conserve and manage the living resources in the exclusive economic zone, take such measures, including boarding,

Pray, tell me, which sovereign rights to "explore, exploit, conserve and manage the living resources" in the EEZ were being exercised by Israel when they boarded the ship? Are ships carrying humanitarian aid a danger for the species living in Israels (some might argue that it's not Israels EEZ, but Gaza's...) EEZ? Were the humanitarian ships buildling an oil platform? Where the Israeli commando's entering the ships armed an all geared up because they saw the activists fishing?



If you're going to quote, then make sure you read the entire text, not just the part you want to read. Contrary to what you seem to imply, "may take such measures, including boarding" is not what is written there.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

...to be honest, i would be surprised if israel made a mistake that elementary...........

The crew of the U.S.S. Liberty might beg to disagree....