How Will Allowing Gays to Openly Serve Effect Combat Readiness?

[Furunculus]

In the past (early ninties) i supported "don't tell" policy because the culture generally, and the culture in the armed forces particularly, was less tolerent than it is today. having homosexuals openly serving would have been a source of strife and would have reduced effectiveness.

That it is not the world we live in today, in the same way that equality has beaten out of the British male the instinctive desire to protect women, that in its day would also have seriously undermined unit effectiveness, so what i am saying is bring on a Starship Troopers world where social hang-ups play second fiddle to ability.

[spmetla]

I work out with Vibeke Skofterud, lesbian olympic gold winner. She will have absolutely no problems kicking my arse.

And nobody felt to comment on whether the gay jokes in the army really are jokes? Not even you, Louis, had something to say to that?

Well I'm of the opinion that most of it is joking. The people that probably are gay aren't doing the horseplay. A fair bit of what I've seen reminds more of the interaction between my brother and I, when we found something that annoyed the other we of course had to do that more to provoke a reaction. I see no difference with military gay immitations, the more vivid or disgusted the reaction the more likely that person will be hit on by the 'fake gays.' Being a quiet type I was initially the target of said annoying fake gays and the best way to stop being hassled by them is do that right back, then it seems to have lost it's fun because I wasn't giving the paniced disgusted reaction anymore.

Yeah, there's probably a few closet gays doing the fake gay acting but I still think most military guys are doing that as just horseplay/bordem.

[HoreTore]

Yeah, there's probably a few closet gays doing the fake gay acting but I still think most military guys are doing that as just horseplay/bordem.

Closet gays? Nonono, you misunderstood my meaning completely.

They are not homosexual in any way, they are simply heterosexual males looking for comfort and closeness in new ways after their previous souces for that have been taken away from them.

[Vladimir]

That it is not the world we live in today, in the same way that equality has beaten out of the British male the instinctive desire to protect women, that in its day would also have seriously undermined unit effectiveness, so what i am saying is bring on a Starship Troopers world where social hang-ups play second fiddle to ability.

If this is true than British soldiers have lost part of their humanity.

I belive it has more to do with male service members coming to appreciate the value a woman can add to a team...and the sex, of course.

[Furunculus]

If this is true than British soldiers have lost part of their humanity.

I belive it has more to do with male service members coming to appreciate the value a woman can add to a team...and the sex, of course.

why?

it hasn't stopped any human insticnt from helping other people in general, or helping those who are vulnerable in particular, so what?

[Vladimir]

why?

it hasn't stopped any human insticnt from helping other people in general, or helping those who are vulnerable in particular, so what?

The same applies to children and small furry things. It's never good to have protective instincts "beaten out of" someone.

[HoreTore]

If this is true than British soldiers have lost part of their humanity.

I belive it has more to do with male service members coming to appreciate the value a woman can add to a team...and the sex, of course.

Why on earth should I as a male have a need to protect women? I have a need to protect children, yes, but that's because children are inferior to me, an adult. Women, however, are far from inferior and in no need of special protection.

[Beskar]

That it is not the world we live in today, in the same way that equality has beaten out of the British male the instinctive desire to protect women, that in its day would also have seriously undermined unit effectiveness, so what i am saying is bring on a Starship Troopers world where social hang-ups play second fiddle to ability.

I highly support the Starship Troopers set-up. We should have more females not just in the army, but other physical activities as well. May it be the police, fire-fighting and others.

[HoreTore]

I highly support the Starship Troopers set-up. We should have more females not just in the army, but other physical activities as well. May it be the police, fire-fighting and others.

There are, however, plenty of them already in the most dangerous job in the world; farming.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Why on earth should I as a male have a need to protect women? I have a need to protect children, yes, but that's because children are inferior to me, an adult. Women, however, are far from inferior and in no need of special protection.

Surely women are physically less well suited to a combat environment on the whole than men? And I expect they are less well emotionally suited as well. This isn't mysoginist trolling, the psychological differences between men and women are raised even by feminists, who complain that things like politics have been too dominated by a male-mindset, hence realism etc. Women tend to have more of a caring attitude, whereas men see things more in terms of duty and contracts etc.

This may be due to social rather than biological factors (though I doubt it is solely), but it is still nonetheless relevant.

[HoreTore]

Surely women are physically less well suited to a combat environment on the whole than men? And I expect they are less well emotionally suited as well.

If your sister/mother/girlfriend is a weak little baby then fine. But the thousands of female combat veterans from around the world proves you wrong.

[Rhyfelwyr]

If your sister/mother/girlfriend is a weak little baby then fine. But the thousands of female combat veterans from around the world proves you wrong.

tbh, I cannot think of one girl from my class at school that would have been likely to do well in a combat environment. But then again this isn't Scandinavia where women chew tobacco and act in a most unseemly manner. *snob*

[Furunculus]

The same applies to children and small furry things. It's never good to have protective instincts "beaten out of" someone.

hold on their chuckles, didn't just say that there was no particular dimunition in the expectation of helping the vulnerable?

what i am talking about is the overbearing chivalry that rendered israeli male soldiers combat inneffective when israeli female soldiers where injured or exposed to mortal threat, a factor that wasn't present when men were in the same situation.

[Sigurd]

Jesus said you are either for him or against him., there is no middle ground.

Only Sith deals in absolutes.

sorry couldn't resist...

[Furunculus]

Surely women are physically less well suited to a combat environment on the whole than men? And I expect they are less well emotionally suited as well. This isn't mysoginist trolling, the psychological differences between men and women are raised even by feminists, who complain that things like politics have been too dominated by a male-mindset, hence realism etc. Women tend to have more of a caring attitude, whereas men see things more in terms of duty and contracts etc.

This may be due to social rather than biological factors (though I doubt it is solely), but it is still nonetheless relevant.

this is true in general, if not in particular, given that militaries have training standards that must be conformed to, so while you would expect less woman to end up as infantry those that do make it should be capable of equally arduous activity.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

this is true in general, if not in particular, given that militaries have training standards that must be conformed to, so while you would expect less woman to end up as infantry those that do make it should be capable of equally arduous activity.

But the ones who CAN hack it should get the shot. Moreover, there are scads of combat slots where the inability to make pickup on a buddy is largely irrelevant (most aircrew, MBT crew [okay, loader is unlikely], etc.).

That was NOT true in Starship Troopers (LOVE that book) by the way, Heinlein's MI was an all guy outfit and, therefore, so were all of the supreme command cadre since they had to have both commanded a ship AND a regiment to get selected for that command billet.

Integration is, long-term, the only viable answer. Rules will have to be set that prevent the inevitable fornication from interfering with duty/readiness and enforced harshly at first, but the transition can be made.

[Furunculus]

But the ones who CAN hack it should get the shot. Moreover, there are scads of combat slots where the inability to make pickup on a buddy is largely irrelevant (most aircrew, MBT crew [okay, loader is unlikely], etc.).

That was NOT true in Starship Troopers (LOVE that book) by the way, Heinlein's MI was an all guy outfit and, therefore, so were all of the supreme command cadre since they had to have both commanded a ship AND a regiment to get selected for that command billet.

agreed.

i am only thinking of the shower scene from the film.........

[Seamus Fermanagh]

agreed.

i am only thinking of the shower scene from the film.........

I loathed the depiction of the arachnids in the film, I mean, they were a space-faring race in the book with satrapies among other species and all we get is a screaming bug with no weaponry and less tactical sense than the creature in Alien? Sheesh....

On the other hand, as I have the same "infantile bias" Lars sometimes displays in the babe thread, I would have to note that video of athletically-built women covered largely in soap suds was not a bothersome addition.....

[Vladimir]

hold on their chuckles, didn't just say that there was no particular dimunition in the expectation of helping the vulnerable?

what i am talking about is the overbearing chivalry that rendered israeli male soldiers combat inneffective when israeli female soldiers where injured or exposed to mortal threat, a factor that wasn't present when men were in the same situation.

Err...

I thought so. I wasn't speaking of that example. If you, as a man, have no inclination or desire to protect a woman, than you are something less than a man. This could be due to real or perceived physical weakness but is more likely linked to a genetic desire to protect those who bear our young. There is nothing wrong with that desire, but possibly in how it is implemented (re: burkas, chastity belts, etc).

But the ones who CAN hack it should get the shot.

Err, no. Don't fall into the trap of thinking the problem women in combat is based solely on physical attributes with strength being the primary.

Edit: Maybe you weren't just talking about physical attributes. I don't think you understand just how the presence even a single woman can affect a bunch of young, dirty, and stressed out men.

Sorry, I don't mean to derail the thread...Lesbians on the other hand, are great in combat situations.

[gaelic cowboy]

Bah yer all behind the times have ye ever seen a crowd of hens attacking the police in manchester them jihadi wouldnt stand a chance.

[Vladimir]

Bah yer all behind the times have ye ever seen a crowd of hens attacking the police in manchester them jihadi wouldnt stand a chance.

You're right. The problem occurs when women are in the minority.

[Rhyfelwyr]

The main issue with female troops isn't their own ability to serve, it's just that when they are placed with the guys then trouble ensues. Below are a couple of BBC links:

Women at war face sexual violence

"According to several studies of the US military funded by the Department of Veteran Affairs, 30% of military women are raped while serving, 71% are sexually assaulted, and 90% are sexually harassed.

The Department of Defense acknowledges the problem, estimating in its 2009 annual report on sexual assault (issued last month) that some 90% of military sexual assaults are never reported."

Women at war: sexual violence in the US military

That has got to be devastating to the ability of these troops to fight together.

[Vladimir]

This is nothing. As HoreTore implied: 99% of males are sexually assaulted. The difference is that most of us them like it.

[Beskar]

For some reason, the last few posts reminded me of a scene from the Peep Show which involves a ex-military 'lesbian' and one of the stars, Mark.

[HoreTore]

The main issue with female troops isn't their own ability to serve, it's just that when they are placed with the guys then trouble ensues. Below are a couple of BBC links:

Women at war face sexual violence

"According to several studies of the US military funded by the Department of Veteran Affairs, 30% of military women are raped while serving, 71% are sexually assaulted, and 90% are sexually harassed.

The Department of Defense acknowledges the problem, estimating in its 2009 annual report on sexual assault (issued last month) that some 90% of military sexual assaults are never reported."

Women at war: sexual violence in the US military

That has got to be devastating to the ability of these troops to fight together.

So? Are you saying that there's no soldier on soldier violence among the males?

Soldier on soldier rape is far more common than you'd think, and that's among male heterosexual soldiers...

This is nothing. As HoreTore implied: 99% of males are sexually assaulted. The difference is that most of us them like it.

No, my point was that we disguise our need for comfort and closeness as aggressive sexuality.

[Vladimir]

No, my point was that we disguise our need for comfort and closeness as aggressive sexuality.

Or, more accurately, it's more fun/funnier when it's illegal.

[HoreTore]

Or, more accurately, it's more fun/funnier when it's illegal.

Nah, it's completely legal, that's not it....

But it's impossible for a macho male to admit that he has a need for a calming touch, something we definitely need in the very harsh conditions in boot camp...

[Vladimir]

Nah, it's completely legal, that's not it....

But it's impossible for a macho male to admit that he has a need for a calming touch, something we definitely need in the very harsh conditions in boot camp...

Looks like we had different experiences. But then again, my team's job constantly involded the misfortune of others. Maybe we developed a warp sense of humor.

Regardless, gay-themed humor was better than potty humor; and I crack up at even the mention of the word "scatological."

[HoreTore]

Looks like we had different experiences. But then again, my team's job constantly involded the misfortune of others. Maybe we developed a warp sense of humor.

My point is that what you think was a joke from your comrade was actually a cry for a parental touch that he could not bring himself to say plainly

[Rhyfelwyr]

So? Are you saying that there's no soldier on soldier violence among the males?

Soldier on soldier rape is far more common than you'd think, and that's among male heterosexual soldiers...

30% of female soldiers are raped and all you say is "so"?

And I really doubt 30% of male soldiers have been raped. So this is an example of why female soldiers might not be as ideal.

I'm not saying female soldiers can't do just as good a job, but the above problems have to be taken into consideration.