US Federal Debt Tops $13,000,000,000,000.00

[PanzerJaeger]

Federal debt tops $13 trillion mark

The federal government is now $13 trillion in the red, the Treasury Department reported Wednesday, marking the first time the government has sunk that far into debt and putting a sharp point on the spending debate on Capitol Hill.

Calculated down to the exact penny, the debt totaled $13,050,826,460,886.97 as of Tuesday, leaping nearly $60 billion since Friday, the previous day for which figures were released.

At $13 trillion, that figure has risen by $2.4 trillion in about 500 days since President Obama took office, or an average of $4.9 billion a day. That's almost three times the daily average of $1.7 billion under the previous administration, and led Republicans on Wednesday to place blame squarely at the feet of Mr. Obama and his fellow Democrats.

Leaving aside the intellectual arguments surrounding Keynesian economics, what really bothers me is that I haven't felt any of this spending. With all this money being spent on my behalf, I would expect to be able to buy at least a new car with some Obama bucks. I haven't seen a penny. In fact, my taxes will most likely go up this year.

Where is all this money going? The war and interest take their toll, but that doesn't cover the threefold increase. Has anybody actually benefited from it? I see Biden on the news every once in a while at the grand opening of X $400 million Stimulus funded project that created 4 new GREEN jobs, but with this level of spending, I would expect much bigger results. How much did the interstates cost, or the railroads, or the Hoover dam? Why is China far ahead of the US in high speed rail transport?

The White House would not comment for the record, but an official speaking on the condition of anonymity said the administration is "committed to restoring fiscal responsibility."

[Subotan]

The recession doesn't impact the majority of people, so it shouldn't be expected that the stimulus should do the same.

[HoreTore]

Stop all current wars and start levying war taxes until the debt is gone.

[gaelic cowboy]

Long story short your money is basically in China

[Tellos Athenaios]

Long story short: a lot of that money is essentially a solid foundation of old debts, seasoned with Afghanistan and Iraq, retardation of the tax collection schemes (witness California and property tax), and federal bailout of broken constructions and busted bubbles, and finally a nice layer of instability on the financial markets (nothing to evaporate fat reserves like a pummeling on the free & volatile financial market). Season to taste with combination of reform and refusal to collect substantively more taxes (you don't even appear to have a significant VAT, witness the you can save America debts thread.

And you are actually surprised such a world class mix of heady flavours presents mighty tasty Chinese mouthful of debt?
EDIT: Let's hope for your sakes the Chinese keep their currency rating artificially low. If they don't, then the penalty of exchange rates is on you because that is how such loans work: the debtor covers the risk to the creditor. If they do start manipulating your debts, then the Dollar will make the Euro look like a role model of stable currency.

[Vladimir]

How is it that anyone in "Europe" can criticize the U.S. debt? Your currency is about to collapse and you say we need a VAT?

It doesn't matter how much tax you collect! All that matters is how much you spend.

Sheesh people.

[gaelic cowboy]

How is it that anyone in "Europe" can criticize the U.S. debt? Your currency is about to collapse and you say we need a VAT?

It doesn't matter how much tax you collect! All that matters is how much you spend.

Sheesh people.

Sheesh guy asked a question he got an answer.

[Vladimir]

Sorry. "Furry" (can't remember his full name) has me in an anti-Europe mood again.

[Tellos Athenaios]

@Vladimir: the difference is that in Europe you've got a few countries which are actually fairly healthy[1], and some countries which have made (either of or both) financial drama into a national sport. So we'll probably survive this some way or another[2]. Plus the *actual* debts are significantly less pressing than the US, at least if you must believe the 100% of GDP by 2015 scenario.

If we must believe Strike, you only have Texas[3]. Now, whether or not that is enough to take on 13 times its own weight (the USA debt) especially if the rest do not get their collective behinds into gear and sanitize their economy... ?

[1] Although this is relative, and largely because the structural deficits are better looking.
[2] I am not saying we'll survive this intact.
[3] Yes I know that is Texan rhetoric and not to be taken entirely seriously. And that it might rather heavily depend on how the next few years play out.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Debts have gone through the roof in all Western countries since 2008. They are therefore not the result of Obama. Nor of Labour in the UK, nor of the (rightwing) Christian-Democrats in Germany or Gaullists in France.

National allegations of irresponsible overspending by any national government is electoral rethoric. It is relevant only insofar as one disagrees with the bailouts and stimulus packages in general, as an international response. Any allegations of irresponsible overspending as a hallmark of any particular administration or political wing is pointless.



Me I blame Reagan, Thatcher, Friedman and Hayek for all of this.

[jabarto]

Me I blame Reagan, Thatcher, Friedman and Hayek for all of this.

I think you can blame pretty much anything bad that's happened in the last 30 years on one or more of those people.

[tibilicus]

At least you don't our massive deficit.

Besides, the US will always be alright, here's how it works. If the US goes into recession,the whole world goes into recession. Hence the Japanese and Chinese keep on buying up your government debt. Although of course they will be the real winners when the world economy switches east. You should feel sorry for us, if the UK goes back into recession it doesn't really affect the world so no one buys our debt.

You shouldn't be to worried about the debt, you should be worried about how you can pay it back. If the likelihood is you can pay it back, then it isn't such a big problem. Look at Japan's debt as a % of their GDP (100 and something) and yet they're not panicking, why? because they know that their deficit isn't that big. Take a worse of country, the UK for example, and here the deficit is teetering near the abyss.

Edit: LOL. Just looked at a list of countries in terms of current account balance. Turns out the USA is bottom so scratch that, it's probably ok to be a little worried. Still, you've still got your buddies in the East to buy you out.

[Crazed Rabbit]

Me I blame Reagan, Thatcher, Friedman and Hayek for all of this.

Wow.

I'll assume your joking, since it is Keynes and his ilk who recommend heavy spending and his ignorant followers who spend even more.

As for not feeling any of the spending - that's not surprising. Government spending is fundamentally less efficient and widespread than private spending; it is directed by a handful of politicians to their friends, allies and pet projects, not at what the public actually wants.

CR

[HoreTore]

How is it that anyone in "Europe" can criticize the U.S. debt? Your currency is about to collapse and you say we need a VAT?

It doesn't matter how much tax you collect! All that matters is how much you spend.

Sheesh people.

Currently my government is trying to hold back the NOK so that it does not get even stronger than it is now.

And we've got over 500 billion dollars in reserve thankyouverymuch. If that's the treshold to critizise the US; I most certainly can and will.

Wow.

I'll assume your joking, since it is Keynes and his ilk who recommend heavy spending and his ignorant followers who spend even more.

As for not feeling any of the spending - that's not surprising. Government spending is fundamentally less efficient and widespread than private spending; it is directed by a handful of politicians to their friends, allies and pet projects, not at what the public actually wants.

CR

.....And the people Louis listed thought you could cut taxes without cutting government spending. We didn't have any of that nonsense here in Norway, and lookie! We've got a full treasury and zero debt!

[Subotan]

Me I blame Reagan, Thatcher, Friedman and Hayek for all of this.

Mainly Reagan, as Thatcher was quite insistent on a balanced budget.

Wow.

I'll assume your joking, since it is Keynes and his ilk who recommend heavy spending and his ignorant followers who spend even more.

I assume by "ilk" you mean the majority of economists, worldwide.

[jabarto]

Government spending is fundamentally less efficient and widespread than private spending; it is directed by a handful of politicians to their friends, allies and pet projects, not at what the public actually wants.

If cognitive dissonance could be harnessed as a fuel source you could probably end the energy crisis with this sentence alone.

[Ironside]

The most obvious question is how much of that is because of increased goverment spending. As pointed out, there's a certain economic crisis that have eaten a considerble part of the budget in every country.

Had Obama balanced the budget to Bush levels already, you wouldn't need to declare him god-emperor because he would already be one (that would require either incredible political skill and/or dictorship, since both a large tax hike or massive cuts is politically impossible).

Now if he doesn't have this under control and massivly decreasing by 2012 he deserves scorn on failing on economic responsibillities.

[Louis VI the Fat]

it is Keynes and his ilk who recommend heavy spending and his ignorant followers who spend even more

Our response to the financial pyramid schemes is certainly Keynesian. When the music stops, the tax payers are the ones without a seat.

I blame the four horsemen of the Apocalypse neo-liberalism for turning the world upside down: the financial markets are now sovereign, unchecked by democratic control, what;s more, levying taxes on governments for all they are worth.
They are not disciplined by market forces, because all risk is covered by the bottomless coffers of the governments.

Not only has liberalisation of markets granted financial institutions complete tax exemption, but they have taken it one step beyond still: who is paying tax to whom? Financial institutions to governments, or governments to financial institutions?

And we've got over 500 billion dollars in reserve thankyouverymuch. If that's the treshold to critizise the US; I most certainly can and will.

We are discussing Western economies here, Horetore. Not Kuwait, Saudi Arabia and Norway.

And the people Louis listed thought you could cut taxes without cutting government spending. We didn't have any of that nonsense here in Norway, and lookie! We've got a full treasury and zero debt!

Much as the spiralling debt is not the result of wanton spendthrift by any particular Western government, so too is Norway's fiscal health not the result of any particular Norwegian discipline. It is not at all difficult to balance the books when a country of five million receives this many oil dollars.
Norways social system is not lean and mean, it is a spendthrifty social paradise, what with such luxuries as fully equipped hospitals on remote, sparsely populated islands and what not.

[Furunculus]

Sorry. "Furry" (can't remember his full name) has me in an anti-Europe mood again.

me....! how have i achieved that? :p

[Vladimir]

me....! how have i achieved that? :p

Sorry, I hope I wasn't being rude. Just in an anti-euro (currency) mood.

Actually, Louis has a point. While I do support most of Regan's policies, one of them was to outspend the Soviets. He made an agreement with the Democrats to essentially give them all the money they wanted as long as he got all the money he wanted. Quite the spend-fest.

[Furunculus]

Sorry, I hope I wasn't being rude. Just in an anti-euro (currency) mood.

all good, the Euro frequently sours my mood, at least when anyone suggest Britain joining! :p

[Beskar]

all good, the Euro frequently sours my mood, at least when anyone suggest Britain joining! :p

Britain should join the Euro, or the Neuro.

[Vladimir]

Or both!

[Furunculus]

Britain should join the Euro, or the Neuro.

why?

[HoreTore]

Much as the spiralling debt is not the result of wanton spendthrift by any particular Western government, so too is Norway's fiscal health not the result of any particular Norwegian discipline. It is not at all difficult to balance the books when a country of five million receives this many oil dollars.
Norways social system is not lean and mean, it is a spendthrifty social paradise, what with such luxuries as fully equipped hospitals on remote, sparsely populated islands and what not.

Alright; take Japan then. They've got money in the bank as well.

And what's really to stop us from spending all our yearly oil revenue and cut taxes? It's not like there are no parties willing to do just that....

The oil made it easier to build our reserve, yes. But it still needed to be built. And what's stopping you frenchmen to put all the tax you get from oil comapnies into a special fund, eh?

[gaelic cowboy]

@ Horetore

Population of Norway 4.8 million
Population of France 65.5 million

[Louis VI the Fat]

Do you know who Europe's largest stock owner is? It is the Norwegian oil revenue fund. We buy oil, Norway buys our countries in return. Two percent of Europe's stocks are held by the Norwegian state fund. If that doesn't sound like much, bear in mind that Norway is 1% of the population of the EU.

Every Norwegian is worth 100.000 Euros in assets held by Norwegian government oil funds.



Edit: French oil firms exploit oil. They don't own oil. There precious few natural recources in France. The French have to work for a living.

[HoreTore]

@ Horetore

Population of Norway 4.8 million
Population of France 65.5 million

Population of Japan: 127 million

What was your point again....?

[Ser Clegane]

Population of Japan: 127 million

What was your point again....?

Have you looked at the public debt of Japan recently?

[HoreTore]

Have you looked at the public debt of Japan recently?

Nope. If they've just spent the reserve they built up, I haven't heard about it.

But that's quite irrelevant really, as the point is that they made that reserve in the first place.