Star Fox- Lylat Wars [Concluded]

[Askthepizzaguy]

I am officially the worst host I've ever been, because I haven't even done a tally yet.

Okay doing that now for reals.

[johnhughthom]

I am officially the worst host I've ever been.

Well, that still makes you twice as good as any other host.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Well, that still makes you twice as good as any other host.

High praise, but there are grandmasters around here that continue to inspire me with their profound excellence and abundant creativity, easily as good or better than me.


TALLY:

Beskar: WEW, Chaotix, Psychonaut, autolycus
pevergreen: Beskar, ATPGood, civplayah, CDF, FLax, skooma, lubber, diana, pever, diy
diy: Nightbringer
Diana: Khazaar

pevergreen is lynched, writeup to follow.

Click the spoiler to see who or what you lynched, or wait for the writeup and find out.

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pevergreen- Cornerian Defense Fighter Pilot


James McCloud: Never give up... but your instincts need a tuning?


Game isn't over yet. Keep trying.

[wideyedwanderer]

Wonderful job guys. Let's keep listening to Beskar and lynch Cornerians, shall we? That'll win the game - for Beskar.

[Frozen In Ice]

I wouldn't give up on Beskar yet. His list of "unknowns" include wideeyewanderer, Nightbringer, Chaotix, Death is Yonder, Shlin28, and a few others he won't mention. If we just focus on the ones he had mentioned we are down to five people. IMO we can scribble out wideeyewanderer for now because of his very Cornerian-ish appearance in the beginning of the game. That puts us down to four, Beskar scans one, we're down to three, and that's not bad odds to choose from.

Each passing day it does seem more and more like a trap but I really think the town should give Beskar one more day.

[johnhughthom]

I really think the town should give Beskar one more day.

And another, and another, and another, then it's game over.

[Choxorn]

We've given him his one more day. Now he better find some mafia, or he's almost certainly one himself.

[Chaotix]

I wouldn't give up on Beskar yet. His list of "unknowns" include wideeyewanderer, Nightbringer, Chaotix, Death is Yonder, Shlin28, and a few others he won't mention. If we just focus on the ones he had mentioned we are down to five people. IMO we can scribble out wideeyewanderer for now because of his very Cornerian-ish appearance in the beginning of the game. That puts us down to four, Beskar scans one, we're down to three, and that's not bad odds to choose from.

Each passing day it does seem more and more like a trap but I really think the town should give Beskar one more day.

After reading this post, the main idea I got from it was:

"This looks like a bad idea but we should do it anyway".



At least we're acknowledging that Beskar is probably scum now. The next step is wanting to lynch him.

[Death is yonder]

Indeed, what I'm advocating is basically echoing what Renata said earlier this round.

Beskar needs to give us more results other than just relying upon and rehashing his Pinman credibility.

Furthermore, it is improbable that Star Wolf team will go on without any attacks occurring on them.

At least we're acknowledging that Beskar is probably scum now. The next step is wanting to lynch him.

We're acknowledging that Beskar could be scum, and his motives are questionable. Add in the odds-defying events such as his entire team not even being attacked throughout the course of the game.

I would like to stress again (to the disgruntled public who refute what I'm saying) that my accusation was not that Beskar is lying about being Starwolf/member of wolf team, or even that he actually doesn't have investigative powers, but that he has a hidden agenda.

Especially consider the Beefy incident.

You can even see Beskar trying to use jedi mind tricks on the general populace to make his posts sound better, such as giving a "choice" to people with only one option. Just read through my whole post, more concise than what I'm saying.

Nightbringer could be scum too though, this post reeked of it.

I have to say, jumping in with this thesis on why Beskar shouldn't be trusted after 0 posts since you came in as a replacement is highly suspicious in my eyes. It sounds to me like mafia throwing everything they've got into breaking the towns trust of star wolf when suspicious are already being raised. This also makes it clear that you have been watching whats going on without posting, added scum.
I can't be sure but this just smells to me of scum. Silence to avoid attention followed by a burst of activity to frame an investigator as untrustworthy.
unvote; vote:Death is Yonder

Throwing everything they've got? Right, so town is suppose to sit back and let a neutral party win the game for them? Ignoring an extreme lore-wise possibility that Wolf retains his animosity against Fox?

I admit I've been somewhat inactive in the previous 48 hours due to RL priorities, but this shouldn't affect your judgment on what I'm saying because of that. Stop generalizing through my posts, pause to read and consider the substance within the content.

I can't be sure but this just smells to me of scum. Silence to avoid attention followed by a burst of activity to frame an investigator as untrustworthy.

So you can't be sure, but later in the post you sound extremely convinced.

I think Psychonaut had it spot on the nail when he said that Nightbringer was an extremely scummy suspect that needs to be dealt with.

So, has the comprehensive information network possessed by Beskar investigate Nightbringer, which IIRC was clearly and explicitly request by Psycho in return for dropping his vote on Nightbringer and going with the plan (Arp THIS and Double A I think)?

If not maybe Nightbringer should be tomorrows lynch.

To sum up what I think about Beskar's claim of information:

9 Night phases have elapsed till this point of time. Beskar claims to have information on at least half the players, to a point where now suspects have only been narrowed down to 5 ish people.

Beskar is proposing that with 9 phases, he has accomplished thorough and conclusive investigations on basically 10+ people.

Obviously he's hiding some people under the rug, Beskar is lying about some things too. And don't give me the nonsense that telling this information in public would help the mafia. You lied about statistics.

[wideyedwanderer]

We've given him his one more day. Now he better find some mafia, or he's almost certainly one himself.

I liked it better that way.

At least we're acknowledging that Beskar is probably scum now. The next step is wanting to lynch him.

Lynch Beskar? But why in the name of General Pepper would we do that? Beskar's guidance has done so much good...for the mafia. Let's give it one more day and see if he can nail Peppy, too.

If not maybe Nightbringer should be tomorrows lynch.

Nightbringer is scummy, too, but he can wait. Beskar is likely the bigger problem. We should've lynched him by now.

[Beskar]

Wonderful job guys. Let's keep listening to Beskar and lynch Cornerians, shall we? That'll win the game - for Beskar.

Yeah, because it Definitely WASN'T FALCO that told us to lynch pevergreen. I only said he was only the ones not investigated, aka, I don't know what he is, so one of the options where the mafia was hiding.

So trying to say I picked Cornerians is a really incorrect statement. pevergreen was one of the people I not checked and Frozen in Ice in precisely correct.

[Beskar]

Beskar is proposing that with 9 phases, he has accomplished thorough and conclusive investigations on basically 10+ people.

Obviously he's hiding some people under the rug, Beskar is lying about some things too. And don't give me the nonsense that telling this information in public would help the mafia. You lied about statistics.

Erm, are you forgetting that I know 5 people, including myself, plus the results from Double A and ArgTHIS?

So 9 + 5 + results from two others.

It is entirely logical that I am correct. I am not lying at all, and telling everyone who is who, is a very bad move. You are playing very badly for some reason DIY, I don't know if it is because you are scum or too distracted with your studies. Your statements are full of mistakes and critical errors.

[Choxorn]

That adds up to 16. There are 20 players alive right now, which means that you have someone on your suspect list of 5 people that you know the role of. Meaning that you don't know 3 people and Peppy, or 4 people and you do know Peppy and you're just lying.

Either way, a mafia team smaller than 4 people in a game like this would be ridiculous, so I'm going to have to declare shenanigans on your investigations if you scan another n00bian fighter tonight.

It does add up, assuming you actually did know your entire team from the start of the game. Why did you know your entire team from the start when we didn't?

[Beskar]

Either way, a mafia team smaller than 4 people in a game like this would be ridiculous, so I'm going to have to declare shenanigans on your investigations if you scan another n00bian fighter tonight.

So, I am mafia if I investigate and hit a town? Makes no sense.

It does add up, assuming you actually did know your entire team from the start of the game. Why did you know your entire team from the start when we didn't?

Not the entire team, but Star Fox team was a far more powerful than ours with all sorts of abilities and roles, such as revivers. Star Wolf is basically "Star Wolf and Friends".

[Death is yonder]

Erm, are you forgetting that I know 5 people, including myself, plus the results from Double A and ArgTHIS?

So 9 + 5 + results from two others.

It is entirely logical that I am correct. I am not lying at all, and telling everyone who is who, is a very bad move. You are playing very badly for some reason DIY, I don't know if it is because you are scum or too distracted with your studies. Your statements are full of mistakes and critical errors.

So that means you started out with so many individuals, and Pizza still gave you guys recruitable people, such as Joooray?

I'm not seeing the rational Beskar.

Edit: In case not clear, Choxorn says it doesn't add up unless you knew your whole team from the start, I'll assume that Choxorn knows what he's talking about because parellels between the two teams could likely be drawn for balance reasons.

Then, you said not the entire team, so you've basically just verified what Choxorn said, that it doesn't add up, which confirms my suspicion. [/Edit]

Your weak justification that :

Not the entire team, but Star Fox team was a far more powerful than ours with all sorts of abilities and roles, such as revivers. Star Wolf is basically "Star Wolf and Friends".

Supposedly "explains" the numerical discrepancy is extremely curious too.

[Beskar]

So that means you started out with so many individuals, and Pizza still gave you guys recruitable people, such as Joooray?

So did Star Fox?


I am not going to bother replying to any accusations anymore, it is unbelievably irritating having to put up which such nonsense, because my name is basically "Star Wolf". If the whole situation was reversed, you wouldn't be giving Star Fox so much grief and making stupid comments like "if you find a townie tonight, that means you are scum!!".

[Choxorn]

I'll declare shenanigans if you find another n00b fighter, because, in all likelyhood, your suspect list contains at most one of them. Stastically speaking, you really should be able to find a mafia by now.

[Beskar]

I'll declare shenanigans if you find another n00b fighter, because, in all likelyhood, your suspect list contains at most one of them. Stastically speaking, you really should be able to find a mafia by now.

Nope, you are incorrect.

However, I will post the result of who I investigated and if you accuse me of lying, you and go and lynch them and see that I am not.

[Death is yonder]

Because unlike you, Star fox (Choxorn) was definitely 100% pro-town, with an 100% inclination of pro-town victory conditions, and without a doubt, this would remain so to the very end.

You are a neutral party whose intentions have clearly not emulated the above, your motives are questionable, and lore-wise, yes, you are star wolf, you hate Star fox, but you grudgingly concede that divided you will fall. That doesn't mean that you might not use the situation to your advantage would it?

Yes Beskar, the name Star fox carries different connotations from the name Star wolf, especially in this game considering alignments of said parties.

I can't believe you are surprised over this.

You also haven't answered many of my accusations, such as what with the jedi mind tricks, lying to the town, and basically flat out threatening us with a cessations of aid should you be lynched. It doesn't scream "I have the town's best interests at heart" to me.

Beskar, if you retort to the final statement with: "Of course, I'm a neutral party",

Well, I don't want to finish that sentence

[Beskar]

You also haven't answered many of my accusations, such as what with the jedi mind tricks, lying to the town, and basically flat out threatening us with a cessations of aid should you be lynched. It doesn't scream "I have the town's best interests at heart" to me.

Beskar, if you retort to the final statement with: "Of course, I'm a neutral party",

Well, I don't want to finish that sentence

You keep forgetting there are two towns, so in other words, alignment only denotes what town you are in. It doesn't denote "neutral" it denotes "town 2".

Yet you keep forgetting this fact. My victory condition is to defeat the Big Bad, which is the same as the Venomians. It is neutral nothing, my goal is to kill the mafia.

As with the "threats", they are not a threat, it is a fact. If you are going around attempting to lynch team Star Wolf, why would they ever assist the town? The moment they attempt to, you would just lynch them. So it is not a threat, it is a fact.

[Nightbringer]

Nightbringer could be scum too though, this post reeked of it.

Throwing everything they've got? Right, so town is suppose to sit back and let a neutral party win the game for them? Ignoring an extreme lore-wise possibility that Wolf retains his animosity against Fox?

In some ways yes, I am a venomian so of course I am supporting a neutral victory. And I don't think the town should sit back, but actively take part in hunting down the mafia alongside Star Wolf. It is indeed possible that some rivalry existed, and Star Wolf benefited from Fox's demise, but with Fox already dead I think we can rest assured Star Wolf is going to want Andross dead, which is everyone's primary goal (except the mafia of course.) What point would lynching Star Wolf serve, even IF he contributed to Fox's death. The goal is to kill Andross, going after anti mafia power roles is the last thing that will achieve that.

I admit I've been somewhat inactive in the previous 48 hours due to RL priorities, but this shouldn't affect your judgment on what I'm saying because of that. Stop generalizing through my posts, pause to read and consider the substance within the content.

So you can't be sure, but later in the post you sound extremely convinced.

I am sorry if a misinterpreted your absence, but throughout this game I have seen people called scum for lurking, which I assume means it is a good sign of scum... Maybe I'm wrong though, this is my first game.
I didn't mean to generalize either, but I don't think I truly did, correct me if I'm wrong but I saw that the purpose of your posts was to suggest Star Wolf may have worked against Fox, and that we shouldn't trust him. I know you didn't advocate lynching him but that is the natural next step from here.
I see this as making you scum because it is encouraging people not to trust an anti mafia investigator, who should be a great source of information. Things like this will decrease the input from the powerful Star Wolf team.
As I said, I really can't be sure about something like this. If I sound very certain it is because I am making an argument based on what I think. Your posts about Star Wolf also sound very self certain.

I think Psychonaut had it spot on the nail when he said that Nightbringer was an extremely scummy suspect that needs to be dealt with.

So, has the comprehensive information network possessed by Beskar investigate Nightbringer, which IIRC was clearly and explicitly request by Psycho in return for dropping his vote on Nightbringer and going with the plan (Arp THIS and Double A I think)?

If not maybe Nightbringer should be tomorrows lynch.

I hope I am not tomorrows lynch, and will ask you to please investigate me so as not to waste a lynch and so you know I am a neutral venomian fighter.

I realized after I posted that my vote was late but I didn't really mean for it to matter. I jsut wanted to draw attention to the matter. Anyway, make what you want of my arguments, just please investigate before you lynch so you don't waste a kill.

[Death is yonder]

What point would lynching Star Wolf serve, even IF he contributed to Fox's death. The goal is to kill Andross, going after anti mafia power roles is the last thing that will achieve that.

Possible, but tell me if you take one look at the things I cited, especially this interesting logic, and come to the conclusion that Beskar has a common towns goal as his top priority. He seems like he has ulterior motives.

I see this as making you scum because it is encouraging people not to trust an anti mafia investigator, who should be a great source of information. Things like this will decrease the input from the powerful Star Wolf team.

Who should be a great source of information. I'm not seeing any proactive contributions. You are also just examining my case separately, its all interconnected. The "powerful" star wolf team eh? Didn't Beskar just tell Choxorn that the greater numbers in his team from the start was because they had not much special abilities?

As I said, I really can't be sure about something like this. If I sound very certain it is because I am making an argument based on what I think. Your posts about Star Wolf also sound very self certain.

Damned if I do, damned if I don't. If I didn't take a stance on this contentious issue, people would say I'm simply trying to incite trouble without committing to it and staining my name with the rest should I be wrong. If I take a stand on the matter, people say that I'm too self certain.

I'm making an accusation, and what me taking a stand means, is that I'm held responsible for it should I be wrong. Naturally, people are wrong a lot in mafia, but do you honestly expect people to just play a mafia game by lazing around and letting the power roles tell people what to do? Not bothering to make their own decisions and choices and all that? I doubt so.

I hope I am not tomorrows lynch, and will ask you to please investigate me so as not to waste a lynch and so you know I am a neutral venomian fighter.

Uh huh

Psycho requested an investigation of you at the very least many rounds ago, the round where people were starting to organize things around Double A and Arpeggiate's abilities IIRC.

I jsut wanted to draw attention to the matter.

So did I.

I'll also like to note that your behavior in the round where Psycho called you out was also pretty darn scummy.

Now, on to Beskar.

As with the "threats", they are not a threat, it is a fact. If you are going around attempting to lynch team Star Wolf, why would they ever assist the town? The moment they attempt to, you would just lynch them. So it is not a threat, it is a fact.

I would have thought that you would be pleased to be lynched Beskar, then you could point out that fact in everybody's face and say "this is what you get for not trusting me", then everybody would be so ashamed, and never question you again. In fact, should that be the case, I don't see why you are acting like this.

It lacks motivation because this is a game where roles are revealed after death. I should think that your team would get massive credibility if after all this, you could just laugh at them post-mortem.

Unless of course, you will be exposed as lying about something big-time after you are lynched.

And don't tell me that "We will stop helping you whatsoever if you lynch me" is not a threat.

It stinks of trying to find public justification/excuse to change your course of action to something else.

Next, we might even be seeing "Fine, since you chose to lynch me, I regret to inform you that team Star wolf will no longer aid the town, instead it seems like our services will be better used in conjunction with Andross to destroy Cornelia".

Of course, that's just a hypothetical analogy.

[Beskar]

It lacks motivation because this is a game where roles are revealed after death. I should think that your team would get massive credibility if after all this, you could just laugh at them post-mortem.

Unless of course, you will be exposed as lying about something big-time after you are lynched.

Yes, I am going to laugh when we just lost the game as you lynched the investigator and made the game blind.

[Nightbringer]

Possible, but tell me if you take one look at the things I cited, especially this interesting logic, and come to the conclusion that Beskar has a common towns goal as his top priority. He seems like he has ulterior motives.

I'm not just going off your logic, I know you don't think Beskar has a pro town role, but I do, basically, I am not convinced by your arguments.

Who should be a great source of information. I'm not seeing any proactive contributions. You are also just examining my case separately, its all interconnected. The "powerful" star wolf team eh? Didn't Beskar just tell Choxorn that the greater numbers in his team from the start was because they had not much special abilities?

Beskar, an investigator, is about a good of a source as we can get. I know it is interconnected, but I am not convinced by you so I see your case as either simply incorrect or an attempt to frame Beskar. I went with frame because of the lurking thing. I know Beskar claimed to be less powerful, but with Star Fox gone he certainly ahs power as an investigator.
And why is my contribution less proactive than yours?

Damned if I do, damned if I don't. If I didn't take a stance on this contentious issue, people would say I'm simply trying to incite trouble without committing to it and staining my name with the rest should I be wrong. If I take a stand on the matter, people say that I'm too self certain.

I'm making an accusation, and what me taking a stand means, is that I'm held responsible for it should I be wrong. Naturally, people are wrong a lot in mafia, but do you honestly expect people to just play a mafia game by lazing around and letting the power roles tell people what to do? Not bothering to make their own decisions and choices and all that? I doubt so.

No I don't I am just doing the same as you, making an argument based on what I believe about the game, if I am wrong, I should suffer the consequences.

[Death is yonder]

I'm not just going off your logic, I know you don't think Beskar has a pro town role, but I do, basically, I am not convinced by your arguments.

And I'm not faulting you based on that.

Beskar, an investigator, is about a good of a source as we can get. I know it is interconnected, but I am not convinced by you so I see your case as either simply incorrect or an attempt to frame Beskar. I went with frame because of the lurking thing. I know Beskar claimed to be less powerful, but with Star Fox gone he certainly ahs power as an investigator.
And why is my contribution less proactive than yours?

I was referring to how Beskar should be using this information more proactively.

Frame Beskar? He lied about Beefy, using the situation to discredit the Star Fox team. He threatens to cut off flow of information too. Am I not entitled to question the contradictions that exist?

Also, I haven't been lurking. The only round where I lacked any significant contributions to the thread was the last round.

No I don't I am just doing the same as you, making an argument based on what I believe about the game, if I am wrong, I should suffer the consequences.

Precisely.

[Romanic]

Interesting discussions...

Of course Beskar has a different agenda and is protecting his team first.

His goals are probably to kill Andross, and to outlive/kill Star Fox, in that order. So yes, for the moment he's a townie, but who knows what will happen once we disposed of Andross?!

Do we need to lynch Beskar for it? That's up for debate. I'd rather see people working on who could be Androssian instead.

Lynching a Cornerian, pevergreen, was sad, but why did you not say anything pever? No argument, no counteroffer... you were ready to die without a bang. Not very helpful to your cause if you ask me.

@Skooma: A lot of people you voted for ended up dead, and you didn't even get Pinman right on day 4 (you were abstaining). Are you a very bad person hiding behind a vortex?

[Secura]

He lied about Beefy, using the situation to discredit the Star Fox team.

This is actually false; Beskar didn't have any idea about Beefy's role beyond suspicions, and it was the input of Falco/Romanic (as a dead, proven townie) that reinforced his opinion.

The outcome of the situation discredits Star Fox without anyone even having to say anything, so if you're looking for a scapegoat for Beefy's death, you're looking at the wrong person.

[naut]

Death is yonder.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Really, guys?

Really.

Really?

.......Okay. writeup commencing. This one is going to be EPIC.

[wideyedwanderer]

In some ways yes, I am a venomian so of course I am supporting a neutral victory. And I don't think the town should sit back, but actively take part in hunting down the mafia alongside Star Wolf. It is indeed possible that some rivalry existed, and Star Wolf benefited from Fox's demise, but with Fox already dead I think we can rest assured Star Wolf is going to want Andross dead, which is everyone's primary goal (except the mafia of course.) What point would lynching Star Wolf serve, even IF he contributed to Fox's death. The goal is to kill Andross, going after anti mafia power roles is the last thing that will achieve that.

You're saying that even if Wolf helped kill Fox, the town should support him? Fox was the most important townie in the game. Killing him hurts the fight against Andross. Anyone who had the best interests of the town at heart would be enraged if they found out Wolf help kill Fox. But you seem to be okay with it.

Yes, I am going to laugh when we just lost the game as you lynched the investigator and made the game blind.

Funny how you only say this after DIY called you out for it.

I'm not just going off your logic, I know you don't think Beskar has a pro town role, but I do, basically, I am not convinced by your arguments.



Beskar, an investigator, is about a good of a source as we can get. I know it is interconnected, but I am not convinced by you so I see your case as either simply incorrect or an attempt to frame Beskar. I went with frame because of the lurking thing. I know Beskar claimed to be less powerful, but with Star Fox gone he certainly ahs power as an investigator.
And why is my contribution less proactive than yours?

You repeatedly say you are not convinced by DIY's arguments, but you never really say why, except for saying Beskar is "about a good of a source as we can get." If Beskar is such a useful pro-townie, why has the mafia not even bothered to attack him or any of his team?