Star Fox- Lylat Wars [Concluded]

**johnhughthom** · 06-13-2010, 14:50

Vote: Winston Hughes

**miotas** · 06-13-2010, 14:56

Random shot in the dark.

Vote: Krill

**Secura** · 06-13-2010, 16:01

vote: pevergreen

**pevergreen** · 06-13-2010, 16:09

UMG SO MUCH PEVER HATE

**ArpeggiateTHIS** · 06-13-2010, 17:29

Vote: Pevergreen

Until he tells me what his name means, or apologises for saying he hasn't seen me before when I'm already in a game he's in. ArpeggiateTHIS. Remember it.

**Joooray** · 06-13-2010, 17:32

Originally Posted by ArpeggiateTHIS

P

OMG, you are SO going to regret that.

**Cultured Drizzt fan** · 06-13-2010, 17:47

Unvote: No lynch, Vote: ArpeggiateTHIS

Too much pever hate!

Originally Posted by ArpeggiateTHIS

Vote: Pevergreen

Do you know what you have unleashed upon us all?

**shlin28** · 06-13-2010, 18:05

Thinks to oneself:

"I do like capitalising the P in pevergreen... Vote: Peverg- No wait, then I'll be a bandwagonner and be lynched. Must be inconspicuous, must not be lynched.... Aha! I got it!"

Vote: No Lynch

**Seon** · 06-13-2010, 18:22

Don't say the capital p word lest you face DOOM prematurely.

**seireikhaan** · 06-13-2010, 18:28

Vote: Remake

Abstaining is highly suspicious, especially if one isn't Reenk Roink.

**Askthepizzaguy** · 07-30-2010, 14:02

LYLAT WARS

ENDGAME COMMENTARY
Part II

Game Design:

I like the idea of cults, but they are overpowered unless there are vigilantes to counter their ever-increasing power, or have some weakness that makes them lame. Here, I envisioned a cult so powerful, that it could start off with just one member and eventually threaten a large game with victory.

The issues with this are:

There's a chance that the cult leader/converter dies before the cult gets large enough to be a threat, due to the vigilante who is needed for balance.

Someone who begins the game with no allies is easy lynch fodder in the early rounds, if they are unfortunate enough to be chosen randomly that early.

With a themed game like this, I felt compelled to give some of the big name people some powers, but that makes things even more difficult on the cult leader.

Investigations cause severe headaches on a team that's very small to start with.

The cult would need to be able to murder as well as convert, in order to counter investigators and power roles.

There has to be a murder or else a game this size will drag on too long.

There has to be a murder or else people will know right away there's likely a cult.

If everyone is convertible, then you'll find a mafia that has 8 members by round 7, and then the game is basically over.

To balance out these things, I made the cult leader the most powerful mafia role I have ever designed.

The ability to murder AND investigate or convert.

Needs to be lynched twice to die, or vigilante killed once.

Undetectable by most scans, himself. His cult members are much easier to detect through scan, even by the weak investigators. (Going from neutral to non-neutral or Venomian to non-Venomian is almost the same as being guilty, especially if you can't claim to be part of Star Fox or Star Wolf. So yes, Fox and friends could look for guilty parties in spite of their handicapped investigative powers.) And then Wolf himself can easily scan for converts.

Making him an unlikely choice for at least one of the vigilantes, by adding him to the same quicktopic as one of them. This still leaves him vulnerable to one stray shot from Star Fox's team. No warning, just instant death.

Roughly a third of the game was convertible, and many of them could be scanned and then converted afterward.

No matter what Wolf O'Donnell does, it tends to help Andross win. So that means it is really up to Fox to take down Andross.

If Wolf investigates and finds power roles, Andross could risk it and murder those roles. If Wolf investigates and finds cornerians, Andross isn't too concerned with wiping them out immediately and doesn't have to waste one of his own scans on that one. If Wolf investigates and finds Venomians, then Andross can simply risk it and convert them directly without a scan of his own. If Wolf kills anyone but members of Andross' cult, Wolf is helping Andross win the game.

Now, Star Wolf is basically screwed. I needed to balance that out.

If Star Wolf converts Pigma and Krystal, Star Wolf actually becomes more of a threat to Andross, because then they will be able to figure out through all those investigation results, shared with the Fox team, that Andross is not among those scanned, and therefore is probably an infiltrator in either group. Then, when Andross has to later take down Star Wolf, it will take more shots. If Wolf finds Androssian converts and lynches them, he starts to look awfully innocent to the town, while simultaneously reducing Andross' power. If Andross gets desperate and has to remove Star Wolf, it will become too obvious that one of them is killing the others.... especially if they hadn't been targeting the Wolf team all game, and now suddenly, they get it all correct. That indicates an infiltrator.

Subtle clues that something is awry.

The Personal Goals: Wolf has personal goal to defeat Fox. (Makes sense, given their history, and who fights whom in the game) Leon has a personal goal to defeat Falco (Makes sense, given their history, and who fights whom in the game). Pigma has a personal goal to defeat Peppy (Makes sense, given their history, and who fights whom in the game). Panther wants to defeat Slippy.... which is odd, because it is Andrew who has the rivalry with Slippy. Andrew's stated personal goal is to defeat General Pepper, which is just a little off. Intentionally; that's someone that Andross himself would actually want to defeat, given what General Pepper actually does in this game.

Beskar notices that this seems off, as do others.

Andrew being Andross is not entirely unexpected, given that he's Andross' nephew, and was always, ALWAYS loyal to Andross. He even goes after Fox in an Andross-look-alike space weapon that gets defeated by the Aparoids in Star Fox: Assault. So there will always be suspicion that Andrew is either convertible by Andross, or somehow feeding him information, or possibly Andross in disguise.

Beskar conceives of the possibility very early on in the game, but was distracted when Winston got replaced, and the Andross kills never were interrupted.
Diana reads up on Andross and feels the same way.
Secura doesn't trust Andrew either.

Andrew's stated special ability: Immune to most investigations.
Wolf's stated special ability: Is capable of detecting Andross upon investigation.

Both Beskar and Diana raised their eyebrows high when they heard this.

Why doesn't Wolf's team ever get attacked by Andross?

Diana noticed this. Heck, the entire town noticed this one.

Why does Andross' murder never hit the same target as Wolf?

This was always in the back of your head. It almost seemed like Wolf and Andross were working together.... and it was true.

Why can't Wolf ever detect someone who has been converted by Andross?

Beskar realizes this late in the game, and several people start to not trust the scanned Venomians.... just in time.

Why is Wolf the only person who can detect Andross, but he hasn't found Andross?

This one was on everyone's mind.... the later it got into the game, the more apparent it was. People started coming up with the idea that Wolf was infiltrated, even when they were basic townies and dead Fox members.

The game rules state that anyone could be Andross.

No one reads the game rules. That's why I can put vital information there. *whistles innocently*

Giving the town a fighting chance.

Star Fox had an incredible array of scans, conversions, protections, and vigilante powers, and a weak self-protecting mechanism. If only they hadn't revealed half of their members....

A reviver. I almost NEVER give out those roles, because they seem unbalanced. When I give out a reviver, I've made it a VERY challenging game, so it balances something BIG.

The powers most essential to defeating a cult, (Beskar's true investigation, Beskar's vigilante power, Fox's vigilante power, Fox's protection) were transferred to members of their group upon death, creating 2 nearly permanent vigilantes. This means taking out suspected converts was a cinch, and could be done quickly. Then if one group died, they had the option of giving it to the other group.

One of those vigilantes could randomly hit Andross, in spite of all his advantages. But that was not to be.... That vigilante was also probably inclined to destroy Star Wolf, which would have had a secondary effect of weakening Andross' unwitting allies and making him more vulnerable to the lynch.

If Wolf, or people on the wolf team, follow up on their suspicions and just.... scan.... Andrew, they've found Andross. And, Andrew doesn't know about it because they won't blurt it out in the quicktopic. So then, the next night, Wolf murders Andross, and the Wolf team turns mafia, while looking like heroes.

Seriously..... the various paths this game could take make me sizzle.

**Askthepizzaguy** · 07-30-2010, 15:31

Also, I can't believe this one hasn't been done before. *Ahem*

Can't let you do that....

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

**Askthepizzaguy** · 08-01-2010, 11:29

LYLAT WARS

ENDGAME COMMENTARY
Part III

Turn by turn commentary

Day One:

136: Alexander the Pretty Good votes for Cultured Drizzt Fan. See? You can hit "mafia" on round one randomly, even in big games. But of course, no bandwagon, no lynch, no danger.

150: Johnhughthom votes for Winston Hughes. Jackpot! Sadly, no bandwagon. Sorry, Diana, no Pigma turning into the Aparoid leader today.

165: Winston Hughes votes for Johnhughthom in retaliation.... OMGUS vote from the only true mafioso in the game... on round one. OMG is right.... the trope is true! Sadly, no one picks up on this stereotypically scummy response, by an actual scum.

Nothing else of interest.

Official tally:

11 No Lynch: (shlin28, TheFlax, civplayah, Pinman, Beefy187, miotas, Seon, landlubber. remake20, hell_hound, CDF)

8 pevergreen : (Diana Abnoba, Secura, Arpeggiate, choxorn, wideye, YLC, Renata, Chaotix)
2 remake20: (Khazaar, autolycus)
2 Wideye: (joooray, pever)
2 JHT: (Winston Hughes, Double A)
2 Yaseikhaan: (Beskar, Stuck in Pi)
2 TheFlax: (Yaropolk, Yaseikhaan)
1 Frozen in Ice: (Nightbringer)
1 White_Eyes: (Romanic)
1 Chaotix: (Frozen in Ice)
1 Double A: (Skooma Addict)
1 Kadagar: (DIY)
1 Winston: (JHT)
1 shlin28: (ATPGood)

2 abstain: (Splitpersonality, merciary)

8 did not vote: (Kadagar_AV, Krill, Nictel, Rob_the_Celt, White_Eyes:D)

Night One:

splitpersonality (Fox McCloud) protects Peppy
remake20 (Peppy Hare) scans Chaotix
Romanic (Falco Lombardi) scans Renata
Double A (Slippy Toad) scans Beefy187
Beefy187 (ROB 64) cannot revive anyone yet.
Beskar (Wolf O'Donnell) kills pevergreen
Secura (Leon Powalski) scans Chaotix
Cultured Drizzt Fan (Panther Caroso) scans Double A
Winston Hughes Andrew Oikonny/Andross) scans Pinman and kills Death is Yonder

Fox protects Peppy.
Peppy scans Chaotix, does not find Fox Member.
Falco scans Renata, does not find Venomian Fighter.
Slippy scans Beefy187, does not find neutral.
ROB64 does nothing.
Wolf kills pevergreen, thinking he was Falco.
Leon scans Chaotix, does not find Pigma.
Panther scans Double A, does not find Krystal.
Andross kills Death is Yonder (CDF forces)
Andross scans Pinman, finds Venomian Assault Force. Just needs to recruit Pinman next round.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

Day Two:

Already I see I'm going to have inactive players. So, those who died early and were basic townie/neutral will be eligible to continue play as a new role, until the game is halfway over.

Kadagar_AV is replaced by God Emperor.

Giant bandwagon on civplayah for absolutely no reason.

275: Andross votes for civplayah and highlights something that could be construed as scummy, I suppose.

Once the wagon gets rolling, it becomes unstoppable. People, for lack of better suspects, are content with a "at least it isn't me" lynch. And hey, civplayah's post wasn't very constructive. And so, a basic role gets the wagon.

Official tally:

civplayah: 12 (Winston, ATPGood, CDF, wideye, Double A, Yasei, landlubber, merciary, God Emperor, choxorn, Skooma Addict, Chaotix)

shlin28: 4 (Renata, Secura, YLC, splitpersonality)
Renata: 4 (Seon [did not unvote], Frozen In Ice, Beskar, TheFlax)
wideyedwanderer: 3 (johnhughthom, Yaropolk, Nightbringer)
White_Eyes: 2 (Diana Abnoba, Romanic)
Beefy187: 1 (ArpeggiateTHIS, Khazaar)
Nictel: 1 (autolycus)
YLC: 1 (miotas)
landlubber: 1 (shlin28)
Arpeggiate: 1 (Beefy187)
Autolycus: 1 (Pinman)
Krill: 1 (Krill)

No Lynch: 1 (civplayah)

abstain: 3 (Rob_the_Celt, hell_hound, Nictel)

Did Not Vote: 4 (Joooray, remake20, Stuck in Pi, White_eyes)

Nobody voted for any scum this round.

Night Two:

splitpersonality (Fox McCloud) defends remake20
remake20 (Peppy Hare) scans Nightbringer
Romanic (Falco Lombardi) scans ArpeggiateTHIS
Double A (Slippy Toad) scans wideyedwanderer
Beefy187 (ROB 64) cannot revive anyone yet.
Beskar (Wolf O'Donnell) Investigates TheFlax
Secura (Leon Powalski) scans YLC
Cultured Drizzt Fan (Panther Caroso) scans YLC
Winston Hughes Andrew Oikonny/Andross) scans Romanic and kills choxorn

Fox protects Peppy
Peppy scans Nightbringer, does not find Fox member
Falco scans ArpeggiateTHIS, does not find Venomian assault Forces.
Slippy scans wideyedwanderer, does not find Neutral.
Wolf scans TheFlax, finds Venomian fighter.
Leon scans YLC, does not find Pigma
Panther scans YLC, does not find Krystal
Andross scans Romanic, does not find recruitable.
Andross kills Choxorn (CDF forces)

A little surprised Winston didn't just recruit Pinman this round.

But whichever. You never know when you're going to die; it's risky not to recruit.
I suppose if Pinman got scanned this very night, waiting until later to recruit would be good.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

Day Three

Giant wagons on shlin28 and WEW, and once again, nobody voted for any scum. Discussion was a little dry, too.

Official tally:

shlin28- (12) Renata, Secura, autolycus, Double A, CDF, landlubber [did not unvote], Beskar, DIY, Seon, Joooray, Diana Abnoba, hell_hound

WEW- (10) JHT, Chaotix, Pinman, Miotas, Romanic, Nightbringer, Skooma Addict, Yaseikhaan, Alexander the Pretty Good, Beefy187
Krill- (2) TheFlax, Yaropolk
Rob_the_Celt- (1) God Emperor
JHT- (1) WEW
God Emperor (1) Khazaar
YLC (1) shlin28

abstain- (1) Krill

Did Not Vote: (9) Frozen in Ice, merciary, Nictel, Rob_the_Celt, splitpersonality, Stuck in Pi, ~~White_Eyes:D~~, Winston Hughes, YLC

Night Three

splitpersonality (Fox McCloud) defends Renata (CDF)
DIY (Peppy Hare) scans Diana Abnoba (not recruitable)
Romanic (Falco Lombardi) scans Miotas (VAF) but is destroyed.
Double A (Slippy Toad) scans Romanic (not neutral)
Beefy187 (ROB 64) cannot revive anyone (yet)
Beskar (Wolf O'Donnell) Kills Chaotix (CDF)
Secura (Leon Powalski) scans Romanic (Not Pigma)
Cultured Drizzt Fan (Panther Caroso) scans Nictel (Not Krystal)
Winston Hughes (Andrew Oikonny/Andross) recruits Pinman and kills Romanic (Falco)
Pinman (Attack Carrier) is recruited.

The Wolf team is struggling to find any of their members. Their shots in the dark are also troubling.... you never know who you're going to kill.
More basic townies dead means more replacement players.
Falco dying gives Beefy something to do. Mighty Beef Powers, Activate!!!

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

Day Four

Ooh boy. Finally some action!!!

Post 480: Never ever ever make posts like this, as town or mafia. Mafia do it too often, people know this, and that means good-bye. Now Pinman looks guilty, and he just got recruited! To be fair, he made this post before he knew he was even scum. Sad, isn't it?

Post 481: This vote is a winner. Lucky, lucky shot.

484: Pinman OMGUS votes Beskar. A running theme.... the Andross team is very OMGUS-y.

495: Yaropolk correctly adds pressure to Pinman.

499: Flax, while still a townie, also adds to the Pinman pressure.

500, 501, 502, 503, 504: In rapid succession, Auto, Arpeg, WEW, Beefy, and Double A (Townie central) decides Pinman must die. Pinman is totally screwed.

505: Pinman reveals Beskar as Star Wolf, trying to make himself appear to be a scanner. This move might have worked, and maybe it should have, but it did not.

Pinman surviving and removing Beskar would probably have tilted the game toward the Androssian team, early. Pinman would no longer scan as neutral, either, and the only people who could prove he is lying would be Star Wolf team members with Wolf's scanning power. And by then, no one would trust Wolf's word over a supposedly revealed scanner. Pinman would have been protected, and left alive for a good long while. Probably lynched later on, but by then the damage would be irreversible.

A good ploy, by the Androssian team here. But for some reason, it fails. Claiming investigator like this is actually a little scummy.... you can only be scum or a scanner, realistically, and due to how the events unfolded, Pinman ends up looking more like scum than like a Cornerian investigator.

506: The ploy fools Flaxy.

508: Beskar goes super-aggressive on Pinman.

509: Flax kinda wavers and unvotes Beskar.

515, 516: Beefy and landlubber vote for Beskar. Now we have a real contest.

531: God Emperor had been voting for Beskar, but now that "claimed investigator" Pinman is not even voting for Star Wolf anymore, this apparently triggers God Emperor's bull spit meter. A whiff of uncertainty from the supposed investigator is not good.

569: Khazaar votes for ArpeggiateTHIS, no reason. And I, am, confused.

I have no idea what he's doing.

Much later, with lots of angry, silly posts in between, Beskar posts this:

616: Beskar reveals he's Star Wolf, and makes another plea to lynch Pinman.

For whatever reason, Fox team sides with Beskar, and that's too many votes for Andross' forces to overturn. It's not worth it for Andross to back up Pinman in any way. Pinman goes down, and based on something that was posted when Pinman was a nothing and a nobody, he is accidentally lucky-shot nailed, and Beskar all of a sudden looks GLORIOUS.

It could EASILY have gone the other way. People flipped a coin, and it landed on the right side. I think Pinman acted a little scummy here, but I could of course see that, being the host. I am impressed that others noticed this stuff seemed off. Can't really put my finger on why, but I think backing off Wolf's lynch by Pinman was the bad move. His claim was also slightly off (in the minds of townies). There were actually Cornerian power roles, but only Cornerian power roles would know that. It would be hard for Pinman to claim anything else without being immediately caught out, so yeah.

A brilliant, valiant try by Pinman. Such a shame he went down so soon after being mafia. He still proves invaluable to the Andross team, as he basically becomes Andross whenever Winston/civplayah is inactive. Pinman was really the brains behind Andross most of the time.

Post 648: Yaseikhaan STILL calls for Beskar's head. I am undecided whether that would have been a good idea, but given how much of a distraction Beskar becomes to the game... maybe! I like this thinking outside the box, Khaan. Unorthodox, but puts pressure on Beskar not to act too anti-town and really really try to catch Andross.

Official tally:

Pinman: (12) Arpeggiate, WEW, God Emperor, JHT, miotas, pevergreen, autolycus, DIY, Secura, Flax, Double A, Beskar

Beskar: (7) landlubber, Stuck in Pi, Yaro, Renata, Yaseikhaan, Frozen in Ice, Pinman

Stuck in Pi: (2) Beefy, CDF
Wideyedwanderer: (1) Nightbringer
ArpeggiateTHIS: (1) Khazaar

No Lynch: (1) hell hound

abstain: (4) Diana, Seon, Skooma, ATPGood

(votes after midnight don't count)

Did Not Vote: (8) (Joooray, Krill, merciary, Nictel, Rob_the_Celt, splitpersonality, Winston Hughes , YLC)

Night Four

splitpersonality (Fox McCloud) defends JHT
DIY (Peppy Hare) scans JHT
Romanic (Falco Lombardi) scans no one yet (in docking bay)
Double A (Slippy Toad) scans Beskar
Beefy187 (ROB 64) revives Romanic (Falco)
Beskar (Wolf O'Donnell) Investigates Renata
Secura (Leon Powalski) scans Diana Abnoba (Pigma)
Cultured Drizzt Fan (Panther Caroso) scans Skooma Addict
Winston Hughes (Andrew Oikonny/Andross) recruits TheFlax and kills Yaropolk

Fox defends John (successful)
Peppy scans John (Successful- recruitable!)
Romanic returns to the living players list. (Falco)
Slippy scans Skooma, finds Neutral player.
Beefy187 revives Falco
Beskar investigates Renata and finds Cornerian.
Secura investigates Diana and finds Pigma.
Cultured Drizzt Fan investigates Skooma and does not find Krystal
Andross kills Yaropolk (Cornerian defense force)
Andross recruits TheFlax (Shogun)

Pigma joins Star Wolf now. ROB64 revives Falco. Katt is scanned and joins Star Fox. TheFlax becomes Androssian

Recruit, little factions, recruit!

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

Day Five

Don't get too excited. Here we go!

695: Krill nominates himself for death. Pizza reaction: frowny face.

718: Renata nominates Seon. Nothing there, but better than a self-vote.

741: Beefy's troubles begin with a vote by Romanic. I gasp in horror as things go horribly, horribly wrong.

756: Romanic reverses it, with a much better vote. Hey, at least he's voting for Panther now.

774: Seon is doomed by a massive wagon, Beefy is spared. So, since the round is almost over, I decide to have a little fun, and I help Seon forge a fake role PM so he can mess with you. Why not?

He had already made the decision to post a fake claim that he was scum just to mess with people, so my involvement was just to make it more believable.

Official tally:

17 Seon (choxorn, Renata, Flax, Joooray, Beefy, Double A, Diana Abnoba, God Emperor, landlubber, Romanic, Beskar, pevergreen, Frozen, WEW, ATPGood, Secura, Miotas)
3 Beefy (Nictel, Skooma Addict, Cultured Drizzt fan)
2 Krill (Nightbringer, Seon)
1 hell_hound (autolycus)
1 pevergreen (DiY)

1 Abstain (hell_hound, JHT)

NOT VOTING: civplayah, Khazaar, Krill, merciary, Rob_the_Celt, Stuck in Pi, Yaseikhaan, YLC

YLC, Rob_the_Celt, merciary: You will be replaced by: Chaotix, Psychonaut, and shlin28.

Night Five:

choxorn (Fox McCloud) defends Beefy
DIY (Peppy Hare) scans Beefy
Romanic (Falco Lombardi) scans no one and uses G-diffuser
Double A (Slippy Toad) scans Yaseikhaan
Beefy187 (ROB 64) revives no one (no one down)
Beskar (Wolf O'Donnell) Kills God Emperor
Secura (Leon Powalski)
Cultured Drizzt Fan (Panther Caroso) scans Death is yonder
civplayah (Andrew Oikonny/Andross) investigates Skooma and kills Romanic
TheFlax cannot do anything yet
Pinman is dead

choxorn defends Beefy (success)
DIY scans Beefy (Cannot join Star Fox)
Double A scans Yaseikhaan (not neutral)
Beskar kills God Emperor (success)
Cultured Drizzt Fan scans DIY (not Krystal)
civplayah investigates Skooma (recruitable) and kills Romanic (successfully!)

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

More to come soon!

**wideyedwanderer** · 06-14-2010, 05:17

The game's started already? Man.

Two people voted for me? Aw, how thoughtful.

Random voting is a good thing. Vote: pevergreen

**TheFlax** · 06-14-2010, 05:34

Originally Posted by wideyedwanderer

The game's started already? Man.

Two people voted for me? Aw, how thoughtful.

Random voting is a good thing. Vote: pevergreen

Random vote bandwagon? Nice. Any reason why you feel compelled to place poor pevergreen in the lead?

Thanks for the tally, Romanic.

**Beefy187** · 06-14-2010, 06:01

Unvote, Vote: No Lynch

I don't want pever to die either.

**miotas** · 06-14-2010, 07:07

Unvote: Krill, Vote: No Lynch

**Askthepizzaguy** · 06-14-2010, 07:19

There's more peverlove than peverhate, pever.

**pevergreen** · 06-14-2010, 07:23

Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy

There's more peverlove than peverhate, pever.

Seems like that.

Unvote: ATPGood, Vote: Wide

Going for the easy target hmm?

Wide is mafia (someone has to act Sasaki like)

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