Star Fox- Lylat Wars [Concluded]

[Romanic]

Now tell me this if you are Mafia looking to recruit who are you going to pick? An epic lurker like Khaz, who makes minimalistic posts like the above. Or someone with a bit of panache (no offence Kaz), like auto...

Andross tried to kill Frozen in Ice, who was already dead. You are making assumptions that the mafia would always do the best move, when it clears that they messed up at least once when they tried to kill Frozen In Ice.

The explanation to why Autolycus was not converted is simple, he cannot be converted because he's a Cornerian.

If Autolycus is not General Pepper, the guy who prevent Cornerians from being converted, then you are saying that all Cornerians could be converted? That's too easy, they would have converted Cornerians instead of Venomians, but we haven't seen any scanned Cornerians turn into mafia.

Why do you think they converted the way they did? civplayah knew who was scanned and what they were, from the Star Wolf team. They converted neutrals who were already scanned! TheFlax: scanned then converted. Skooma: scanned then converted.

Thus -> Khazaar, scanned and converted. Nightbringer, scanned and converted.

Otherwise they would have jumped at the possibility to convert YOU Psychonaut, or to convert khaan as you were both confirmed Cornerians, and you should have been prime targets to convert.

It didn't happen because autolycus protected you by being alive.

[Choxorn]

Lynch Khazaar or Nightbringer, please. I'd prefer Nightbringer, he's far more epically scummy, but there's already a bandwagon on Khazaar, so lynch him, please.

Star Whatever- Sorry we ever doubted you guys, thanks a bunch for taking down most of Andross in a few nights. Now let's finish this.

[Choxorn]

Also, Psycho, your vote analysis is very flawed. The bandwagon on Khazaar occured on day 7, and Double A scanned him Neutral the following Night. He certainly couldn't have been mafia then. When you think about it, it's a perfect decision, because they're converting not random Venomians, but people who have already been revealed in the thread to be Venomian, like Skooma, TheFlax, and Khazaar.

Also, Mafia vote for each other all the time. They rarely bandwagon other mafia, but still vote for each other. That one of them has voted for another doesn't prove or disprove anything.

Oh, and we knew Diana was in Star Wolf for ages, it was actually pretty obvious.

[Secura]

Why do you think they converted the way they did? civplayah knew who was scanned and what they were, from the Star Wolf team. They converted neutrals who were already scanned! TheFlax: scanned then converted. Skooma: scanned then converted.

That is exactly the case; we believe that Winston Hughes recruited Pinman within the first phase or two and then recruited Flaxy once Pinman had been lynched because Beskar had stated in the QuickTopic that Flaxy was neutral, and thus recruitable to Andross.

Unfortunately, everytime that Beskar proved someone's innocence and stated as such in our QT, this became known to the mafia who promptly recruited them; the thing is, you never suspect your masonic allies, particularly ones who have to be replaced by another player, to be the mafia godfather... we only began to consider such an outcome a few weeks ago. >.<

[Secura]

Lynch Khazaar or Nightbringer, please. I'd prefer Nightbringer, he's far more epically scummy, but there's already a bandwagon on Khazaar, so lynch him, please.

One today, the other tomorrow... simple.

they're converting not random Venomians, but people who have already been revealed in the thread to be Venomian, like Skooma, TheFlax, and Khazaar.

They're recruiting based upon Beskar's investigation results, mostly.

Oh, and we knew Diana was in Star Wolf for ages, it was actually pretty obvious.

Indeed, I felt it was glaringly obvious, but still did my upmost to defend her from a lynch; I lost my sole ability by recruiting her, and hadn't gone to all that effort to have her lynched for being a little bit lurky. :P

[Choxorn]

Yeah, I was thinking that too. While it was obvious for them to recruit based on Beskar's investigation results, it was probably better to recruit people already revealed in the thread as Venomians, because everyone, not just you guys, "knew" they were innocent.

[Death is yonder]

Andross tried to kill Frozen in Ice, who was already dead. You are making assumptions that the mafia would always do the best move, when it clears that they messed up at least once when they tried to kill Frozen In Ice.

The explanation to why Autolycus was not converted is simple, he cannot be converted because he's a Cornerian.

If Autolycus is not General Pepper, the guy who prevent Cornerians from being converted, then you are saying that all Cornerians could be converted? That's too easy, they would have converted Cornerians instead of Venomians, but we haven't seen any scanned Cornerians turn into mafia.

Why do you think they converted the way they did? civplayah knew who was scanned and what they were, from the Star Wolf team. They converted neutrals who were already scanned! TheFlax: scanned then converted. Skooma: scanned then converted.

Thus -> Khazaar, scanned and converted. Nightbringer, scanned and converted.

Otherwise they would have jumped at the possibility to convert YOU Psychonaut, or to convert khaan as you were both confirmed Cornerians, and you should have been prime targets to convert.

It didn't happen because autolycus protected you by being alive.

Psycho, I believe this post explains every single reason why we should not be lynching Auto today.

Instead, as mentioned, our attention should be targeted at either Khazaar or Nightbringer.

Khaan, you need to change your vote

A simple capitalization error isn't going to cut it for me for declaring that a role claim is fake.

Edit:

Following the line of recruitment with individuals revealed in thread as neutral,

I strongly believe that Khazaar was recruited and needs to die first this round.

[seireikhaan]

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Unvote,

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

vote: Khazaar

[naut]

If there is a second mafia, you guys might want to lynch Psychonaut. Especially if the attempt at getting the lynch off Khazaar works.

Otherwise they would have jumped at the possibility to convert YOU Psychonaut, or to convert khaan as you were both confirmed Cornerians, and you should have been prime targets to convert.

It didn't happen because autolycus protected you by being alive.

You have to be kidding right. Being Cornerian means I can't be converted. Please don't muddy the waters. I've shotgun blasted a dead on Mafia with bells attached once already, so don't question my loyalties. I am making a legitimate case against auto here, because looking at the facts I come to that conclusion. If khaz is Gorgon I'll be very happy, but I just don't see it happening. Even after auto revealed Beskar thought him and Chaotix where most likely Mafia.

Andross tried to kill Frozen in Ice, who was already dead. You are making assumptions that the mafia would always do the best move, when it clears that they messed up at least once when they tried to kill Frozen In Ice.

Good point.

The explanation to why Autolycus was not converted is simple, he cannot be converted because he's a Cornerian.

He's never been scanned, we don't know what he is. He could quite simply be lying with a convenient cover.

If Autolycus is not General Pepper, the guy who prevent Cornerians from being converted, then you are saying that all Cornerians could be converted? That's too easy, they would have converted Cornerians instead of Venomians, but we haven't seen any scanned Cornerians turn into mafia.

No I'm saying the reverse. Cornerians can NEVER be recruited. If we could be that would affect game balance. And that means civplayah's investagative ability makes sense. To scan people to find viable recruits. The game balance would become all messed up if he could recruit willy-nilly.

Why do you think they converted the way they did? civplayah knew who was scanned and what they were, from the Star Wolf team. They converted neutrals who were already scanned! TheFlax: scanned then converted. Skooma: scanned then converted.

Thus -> Khazaar, scanned and converted. Nightbringer, scanned and converted.

Pinman could investigate. So what's not to say he investigated auto early on? Yes, they did do what you say there, and it makes sense turn the players the town think are innocent.

But, I'm looking at this from a game balance perspective. ATPG wouldn't make a game have neverending recruitment, because that is poor game balance. Even 6 Mafia is too much for a game of this size. 5 on the otherhand makes sense. We have 1 Mafia left if this game is balance correctly, which knowing ATPG it is.

Lynch Khazaar or Nightbringer, please. I'd prefer Nightbringer, he's far more epically scummy, but there's already a bandwagon on Khazaar, so lynch him, please.

Star Whatever- Sorry we ever doubted you guys, thanks a bunch for taking down most of Andross in a few nights. Now let's finish this.

Gorgon appeared the night he was scanned he can't be Gorgon. So we shouldn't be lynching Nightbringer.

ciyplayah's cover role.

His personal goal is to kill General Pepper. Now, it would be nice to know, has that always been there, or did he simply add that last night to build up the image of auto's innocence. Food for thought.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Unvote,

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

vote: Khazaar

I'll count this, but for my sanity's sake, I would request all votes not be in spoilers. It makes it difficult for me to make an accurate tally.

After this post, all votes in spoiler are illegal/not counted.

[Secura]

And that means civplayah's investagative ability makes sense.

What investigative ability? His cover role states that he's immune to most types of investigation, but there's no mention of an actual investigative ability in there. o_O

The game balance would become all messed up if he could recruit willy-nilly.

You're making a heavy assumption here, Psycho...

Pinman could investigate. So what's not to say he investigated auto early on?

Where is the proof that Pinman had investigative abilities? All I see is mafia making a desperate claim to try to remove one of their two greatest enemies, which in this case was Beskar/Wolf O'Donnell.

Pinman tried to make his investigator claim look stronger by taking some of Star Wolf's investigation results, such as our Venomian result for Flaxy, and approaching said players with "this is your alignment"... which obviously won some brownie points.

But, I'm looking at this from a game balance perspective. ATPG wouldn't make a game have neverending recruitment, because that is poor game balance.

Sigurd did this, though; the game was essentially prepped for a constant stream of Sith recruits and was always going to end up as a one vs. one situation... so what's to say that Andross wasn't able to recruit every few rounds or so?

After all, the town had Fox McCloud, Falco Lombardi, Peppy O'Hare, Slippy Toad, Wolf O'Donnell, Leon Powalski, Panther Caruso, Pigma Dengar, Krystal, Bill Grey, Katt Munroe, Rob-64, General Pepper... a huge range of power roles against a lone mafia at the start of the game.

Again with the assumptions though... what was it that Sigurd said in his game when everyone was griping about the mechanics behind the Sith?

Don't make assumptions on mechanics until you know the full story.

I think that holds true here, too. :3

[naut]

Fine. We're set then. I don't like this. This vote is too easy, which is usually an indication that we're on the wrong track and the Mafia(s) like the track we are heading down. Promise me yyou'll all eat the humble pie when it turns out that auto is guilty.

[seireikhaan]

'Pologies, ser Pizza. Fear I had a drink too many last night.

[Death is yonder]

Fine. We're set then. I don't like this. This vote is too easy, which is usually an indication that we're on the wrong track and the Mafia(s) like the track we are heading down. Promise me yyou'll all eat the humble pie when it turns out that auto is guilty.

We're working with probability here Psycho.

In all events, its:

More likely that with the nature of auto's role, a Venomian is the one we are looking for.

Take into account the fact that thanks to the mole in Star Wolf team, investigated neutrals who were publicly acknowledged were the ones who were recruited/guilty parties.

[Cue: Skooma Addict, TheFlax, etc]

Hence, currently we're more inclined to consider Khazaar as the remaining guilty party due to his links and similarities to the above.

Promise me yyou'll all eat the humble pie when it turns out that auto is guilty.

That won't be necessary. If it is, then well played by Auto. But as circumstances lie, there lies more benefits in lynching Khazaar rather than Autolycus.

On your suggestion that "pizza won't have made it this imbalanced". What's to say that instead Androssian team could only recruit once per few nights? What's to say that there's another mechanic that determines susceptibility. We don't know. I'm going to echo what Secura quoted from Sigurd. Its not up to us to guess the mechanics of the game, then successively apply it to claim that somebody is lying about their role claim.

I acknowledge it has a sense of plausibility, but, hypothetical logic at this point of the game is just not going to cut it.

This vote is too easy, which is usually an indication that we're on the wrong track and the Mafia(s) like the track we are heading down

Or that they are resigned to their fate/Unavailable due to RL circumstances, we'll never know now will we?

Lets stick to what we know shall we?

[naut]

More likely that with the nature of auto's role, a Venomian is the one we are looking for.

Massive gap in your logic in that auto has never been scanned. We don't know if he is actually Venomian/Cornerian/Pepper. You are assuming he isn't lying, however, I am assuming he is. That's what this has come down to.

[Death is yonder]

I'm assuming he isn't lying because external circumstances, coupled with the nature of those recruited (100% Venomians, flawless record much?)

The fact that Autolycus claims to be a major roadblock in mafia attempts at recruiting Cornelians, and that every single recruited scum has been venomian gives a very strong boost to Autolycus's claims.

Why are you not noticing this Psycho?

[Romanic]

He's never been scanned, we don't know what he is. He could quite simply be lying with a convenient cover.

That's right, autolycus has never been scanned but again, we know that General Pepper should be in the game (every other character from post #1 is). I don't see how autolycus couldn't be General Pepper.

Pinman could investigate. So what's not to say he investigated auto early on? Yes, they did do what you say there, and it makes sense turn the players the town think are innocent.

Pinman claimed investigative powers but he was very possibly lying. He knew that Beskar was Wolf because civplayah infiltrated Star Wolf from the start. He was lying about scanning Beskar, as he didn't have to scan him to know his alignment.

I think the Androssians never had a scanning ability and were relying on the results from Star Wolf.

Even 6 Mafia is too much for a game of this size. 5 on the otherhand makes sense. We have 1 Mafia left if this game is balance correctly, which knowing ATPG it is.

We've killed 5 mafiosi so far, so there's at least 6 of them anyway. 6 or even 7 mafia does not strike me as unbalanced with all the powers the townies had.

[wideyedwanderer]

Promise me yyou'll all eat the humble pie when it turns out that auto is guilty.

I'll eat any pie, as long as we win.

[Choxorn]

We've killed 5 mafiosi so far, so there's at least 6 of them anyway. 6 or even 7 mafia does not strike me as unbalanced with all the powers the townies had.

That may be part of why he doubts that, he doesn't know how many powers Wolf and Fox had, as he wasn't in either group.

[Nightbringer]

Both sides are making good arguments here, but (sorry about this if i am right psycho) maybe psycho is the real general pepper and just doesnt want to reveal. This would explain a lot of things. He could indeed have some kind of ability to keep cornarians loyal that autocylus (if he is mafia) knew about through his own ability. This would go along with the general falseness of autolycus' role claim that i ananlyzed a while ago (ill post it again in a minute). While it is hard to just say that autolycus is mafia i dont think we should be so quick to dispel the possibility. I had similar suspicions a while ago but called flamed (called scum) pretty bad when i talked about it. I think this autolycus thing is worth considering.
The case against Khazaar is also strong though, although i don't think it needs restating by me.

[Nightbringer]

here is my analysis i posted a while ago, i edited out the parts about it being an unlikely role and ability because we know those are not the case now.

There are a few things about this role pm that strike me as very false. The first is the objective.The simple venomian objective of staying alive is written out much longer than this, and the word survive is bold. The objective of surviving is also not listed as a personal objective in either the venomian, or star wolf role pms.
This is a small change, that could just be due to inconsistent formating, but it draws suspicion in my opinion.

There is also no quicktopic html for the town power roles.

Finally, there is no sum up of objectives after the picture of the ship like for venomians and i suspect others.


While these format differences are subtle, I believe that ATPG would have used a template then filled in all the roles with that template. This role breaks that template and is also stated in briefer language in general, invalidating it in my opinion.

Not proof of a faked role pm I know, but Seon showed us it is possible to be convincing, so by looking at the details I don't think we should just buy into this.

[Romanic]

Both sides are making good arguments here, but (sorry about this if i am right psycho) maybe psycho is the real general pepper and just doesnt want to reveal. This would explain a lot of things. He could indeed have some kind of ability to keep cornarians loyal that autocylus (if he is mafia) knew about through his own ability. This would go along with the general falseness of autolycus' role claim that i ananlyzed a while ago (ill post it again in a minute). While it is hard to just say that autolycus is mafia i dont think we should be so quick to dispel the possibility. I had similar suspicions a while ago but called flamed (called scum) pretty bad when i talked about it. I think this autolycus thing is worth considering.

Wrong, Psychonaut cannot be General Pepper or he would have claimed so already, at least this turn if not before. This turn is so crucial that hiding as General Pepper would do no good, and he would counterclaim to make sure we lynch the impostor.

On your analysis why autolycus' claim is false, you are picking weak arguments. It does not matter if the role PM was somewhat altered, as autolycus could have been changing text to protect something important. We know that Beskar did modify his role PM (hiding his vigilante ability), and he was on our side. Picking on small details does not change the fact that General Pepper is supposed to be in the game, that only one of us claimed to be him, and that he's likely to be on our side.

I'm reading a lot in your reluctance to cast a vote. You are waiting to see how things will develop, keeping the option to bus your partner, or to lynch autolycus.

[Nightbringer]

Wrong, Psychonaut cannot be General Pepper or he would have claimed so already, at least this turn if not before. This turn is so crucial that hiding as General Pepper would do no good, and he would counterclaim to make sure we lynch the impostor.

On your analysis why autolycus' claim is false, you are picking weak arguments. It does not matter if the role PM was somewhat altered, as autolycus could have been changing text to protect something important. We know that Beskar did modify his role PM (hiding his vigilante ability), and he was on our side. Picking on small details does not change the fact that General Pepper is supposed to be in the game, that only one of us claimed to be him, and that he's likely to be on our side.

I'm reading a lot in your reluctance to cast a vote. You are waiting to see how things will develop, keeping the option to bus your partner, or to lynch autolycus.

you mean my reluctance to vote khazaar, the person you want me to vote for. i genuinely see a strong argument being made by psychonaut, he has been leading us right for the past few turns and i trust him. i didn't vote because in the past i have been called scum for changing my vote when my opinion changes, so i am waiting until i am sure this time.

I just really don't want to screw up here at the end

Plus, no offense romantic, but you have led us wrong a number of times (including beefy, which was a situation very similar to this), i trust psychonaut's judgement more than yours at this point.

[Secura]

you mean my reluctance to vote khazaar, the person you want me to vote for.

Actually, you'll also find that Leon Powalski/Secura, Pigma Dengar/Diana and Panther Caruso/CDf have also called for Khazaar's lynch, and Wolf/Beskar would also be doing so if he wasn't banned from posting... essentially, the entirety of the neutral power role team that you professed to be aligned with calls for his lynch and you still say no? And then you moan that you look scummy?

It's actually quite funny and ironic, because Flaxy followed quite the pro-Wolf/Beskar line too, and look how that one turned out... mere coincidence? Hardly, methinks you adopted Flaxy's strategy for yourself, p'raps after he mentioned it or was complimented on it in your mafia QuickTopic?

i genuinely see a strong argument being made by psychonaut, he has been leading us right for the past few turns and i trust him.

To me, this appears to be an out-and-out lie, a deliberate attempt to flatter Psychonaut and gain favour with him so that he won't vote for you in the next day phase; the mafia knows that the town has to get the next two lynches right or they lose, and it doesn't take an expert at the game to assess that the mafia's best chance of victory lies with Psychonaut's indecision regarding the second mafia and their identity.

Plus, no offense romantic, but you have led us wrong a number of times (including beefy, which was a situation very similar to this), i trust psychonaut's judgement more than yours at this point.

Psychonaut was wrong about Star Wolf, and that's been a major distraction to the town for a considerable amount of the game; this is just more flattery.

[Romanic]

Plus, no offense romantic, but you have led us wrong a number of times (including beefy, which was a situation very similar to this), i trust psychonaut's judgement more than yours at this point.

About lynching Beefy, that was a team decision from the Star Fox team, and I think a lot of people would have done the same if they were in our situation. Even Beefy admitted after being lynched that he would have done the same. You don't have enough information to judge this decision.

But btw, I don't lead, I give my opinion. People should read it and make their own opinion. Too many are blindly following instead of taking time to analyze by themselves and it's unfair to blame someone when he's not the one voting.

But in this case, I forgive you scum. It's a nice try to attack my judgment and promote Psychonaut's, however I note that after all these words, you still haven't voted one side or another.

[Secura]

But in this case, I forgive you scum. It's a nice try to attack my judgment and promote Psychonaut's, however I note that after all these words, you still haven't voted one side or another.

I think that your posts, coupled with my own, say everything that needs to be said, really... s'out of our hands, my feathered foe. :3

[wideyedwanderer]

Psychonaut was wrong about Star Wolf, and that's been a major distraction to the town for a considerable amount of the game; this is just more flattery.

Was this before or after Wolf brutally murdered Fox for his own personal gain? :P

[Secura]

Was this before or after Wolf brutally murdered Fox for his own personal gain? :P

At the time of his death, Choxorn was actually an entirely unknown quantity to us; we thought he was a lurker, possibly mafia. :3

[Nightbringer]

But btw, I don't lead, I give my opinion. People should read it and make their own opinion. Too many are blindly following instead of taking time to analyze by themselves and it's unfair to blame someone when he's not the one voting.

But then you criticize me for not voting when you tell me to. No, just to go by your statement of not blindly following and voting when told i am not going to vote yet.
I like to observe the arguments made, add in my own knowledge, then come to an informed decision once everyone has made their case. and if you look at my past, this is one ive done the entire game
(no hard feelings mate) :)

[wideyedwanderer]

At the time of his death, Choxorn was actually an entirely unknown quantity to us; we thought he was a lurker, possibly mafia. :3

Suuuuure, tell it to the judge. So instead of using Beskar's scanning ability, he decided to kill him?