Gunpowder weapons in STW2

[edyzmedieval]

Guns or no guns, I still prefer the Yabusame. A skilled Samurai Longbowman is much much better than any Teppo Ashigaru.

[Tsar Alexsandr]

Guns or no guns, I still prefer the Yabusame. A skilled Samurai Longbowman is much much better than any Teppo Ashigaru.

Massed teppo was a dangerous weapon though. And pierces armor better.

That being said, the Yumi was a fine bow. With excellent range and accuracy. They were still around cause they were far more accurate than a ashigaru with a teppo. They'll also be able to arch their fire.

I like both, and plan on using both. :D

[al Roumi]

I think we've more or less agreed that firearms should be involved (like our opinion matters, but anyway), what sort of historical "Teppo" (or other) troops do the orgahs know of?

Ashigaru gunners we had in STW and I've seen plenty of evidence to support their existence, what about Samurai using Teppos? I think I saw mention of some Daimyo insisting on every man in 5 being equipped with a Teppo, but I'm not sure if "man" refers to the whole army (e.g. Smaurai and Ashigaru) or focuses on a standing force of Samurai?

Any one have any reference to particualr fire drills used during sengoku jidai? Any maurician rank firing? STW only allowed the front rank of a formation of gunners to fire, is that historicaly right? What about Pike & Arquebus mixed infantry deployment as used in contemporary europe?

[caravel]

I agree with keeping it simple and close to the first game. Allowing factions to accept the Christians and then acquire teppo early from the Portuguese (Nanban trade) was an important part of that game - and having the option to wait for the Dutch trade and avoid turning Christian was also an important dynamic. In terms of the units, the basic Teppo Ashigaru is all that's needed with an upgrade perhaps coming later in the campaign via the gun factory? Anything more complex, such as three or more different teppo units, will be ridiculous.

The battle of Nagashino is a famous example of the effectiveness of the Teppo against the Takeda cavalry.

[al Roumi]

Thanks Asai, the wikipedia page for the Battle of Nagashino includes the following lines on the use of Arquebuses/Teppo:

"Between the continuous fire of the arquebusiers’ volleys and the rigid control of the horo-shu, the Oda stood their ground, and were able to repel every charge. Ashigaru spearmen stabbed through or over the stockades at any horses that made it past the initial volleys, and samurai, with swords and shorter spears, engaged in single combat with any Takeda warriors who made it past the wooden barricades."

I found two more relevant citations on Japanese firing drill:

"Oda Nobunaga revolutionized musket tactics in Japan by splitting loaders and shooters and assigning three guns to a shooter at the Battle of Nagashino in 1575. (Popular records stating he used a Maurice-style three-line formation are incorrect according to onsite evidence.[citation needed])" source: wikipedia

"speed of loading had to be practiced, married to the discipline needed to successfully carry out bursts of volley fire that is one rank firing, followed by another whilst giving time for the first to reload and fire again, and so on. This would keep up an almost continuous rate of fire although usually with more than just two ranks." Source

So it seems there is some discussion as to exactly what the firing drill was, but the effect of continuous fire seems to be more commonly accepted. My grand conclusion is therefore that I don't think any of the firing drills in ETW would be historicaly applicable to Ashigaru gunners in STW2.

What would perhaps be more historicaly acceptable is some animation system along the lines of a countermarch. Personaly, I hope CA find a way to emulate "continuous" fire (in volleys) by Asigaru gunners. I'd be disapointed if they simply had the first rank firing and reloading, with the 2nd, 3rd and other ranks immobile, only there to plug in the gaps of the front firing line.

[Tera]

The new engine definitely gives CA the chance to improve guns gameplay in Shogun. Think sieges and naval battles. Also, new unit types like Teppo Samurai are a given. They have the opportunity to enlarge the scope without defiling history - win/win.

However, balance is what they must absolutely get right. In STW 1.0/1.1 musketeers (unlike the useless Arques) were too powerful in battle mode, especially in multiplayer. Almost nobody used infantry archers and cavalry archers were only useful in the hands of those few who mastered them. For those of you who remember the battles back then, unless the attack was a well-planned rush (which was rare and hard to pull off), whoever won the missile battle would almost inevitably win the game. Most of the "skill" involved in a multiplayer battle was the ability to time & position yourself well enough to win the missile battle. At 5,000 - 8,000 koku level, which was the range most multiplayer games were played at - guns were both raw killing machines and morale heavy-hitters. In Mongol Invasion, guns were finally toned down and archers were improved - which led to a more diverse and exciting gameplay. Archers became absolutely lethal against low-armored units, had a high rate of fire, had better range and could be used in melee mode when their ammo was depleted (especially mounted ones).

I am confident the rock-paper-scissors system used in melee units will be good, although we will surely find loopholes to be fixed. For example, I remember people using an full army of high-honour Yari Ashigaru which, until banned/fixed, could defeat any samurai army whatsoever. Let's hope CA can learn from the lessons of the past and also deliver a good balance among missile units.

Tera

[Reenk Roink]

I love how Kage and others bring every little game issue thread nice historical tidbits and pictures. I'm very ignorant of the period and I don't want to be so this is awesome.