Unit Speculation?

[General Malaise]

In another thread I brought up how I would prefer to see the units done, which was component customization rather than pre-configured static units. However, since they most certainly won't do this I was wondering how exactly there are planning to get 30-40 units in Shogun without coming up with nonsense. After doing some research and fiddling around, I came up with the below:



Now, this is being very generous with what weapons were actually commonly used and by what kind of troop, and this also comes out to 30, which is ten less then their maximum total but still 10 more than what they claimed would be per faction (which was 20). Ergo, I'm wondering what you all think of this, meaning:
1) How do you think CA will *actually* end up implementing troop types in Shogun?
And
2) How would you rather *prefer* them to implement troop types?

I bring this up in its own thread since unit type, in terms of value, balance, and versimilitude is personally a dealbreaker for me on this game and it seems to be like that for some others too, especially old-timers. Have I missed something or got something inaccurate on my chart (besides the names, which aren't too much of a big deal) or do you think we'll end up getting stuck with reskins and/or pure fantasy troops? If it's moddable, which it really *ought* to be, how would you mod it if it was, assuming you would?

[Tera]

You might have just guessed some of the new units there!

CA will surely use anything which is historically sound. Units like Teppo Samurai and Archer/Crossbow Ashigaru are both historically accurate and excellent tactical additions.

I think that after milking the history cow as much as possible, CA will resort to some, so to say, 'twisting' like:
Heavy Cavalry Archers (more expensive and armoured mounted archers)
Light Cavalry (fast units like Yari Cavalry but using swords)
Samurai Infantry (basic katana-wielding samurai troop, fitting in unit balance between Yari Samurai and No-Dachi)

[Tsar Alexsandr]

I would like to see Masamune Date style Teppo Cavalry men. :D That would make me very happy.... XD

[General Malaise]

Huh, I didn't come across anything about teppo from horseback. Seems like it would be clumsy to shoot and difficult if not impossible to reload. Where'd you read about this out of curiosity? Did they actually shoot while moving or was it more dragoon style where'd the would ride to battle or around the field and mostly get off to actually shoot?

[Tsar Alexsandr]

Huh, I didn't come across anything about teppo from horseback. Seems like it would be clumsy to shoot and difficult if not impossible to reload. Where'd you read about this out of curiosity? Did they actually shoot while moving or was it more dragoon style where'd the would ride to battle or around the field and mostly get off to actually shoot?

Where I read it, well I can't actually cite the source on that lol. But I have read about Teppo being used from horseback. Primarilly Masamune Date's forces. They would have functioned like Dragoon's I imagined. I think they were at the Battle of Osaka under Masamune Date.

The Date and the Shimazu clan both had pretty good gunpowder units. Shimazu used to toss a Yumi bow archer in the unit to act as a sniper basically lol. XD As the Yumi was still more accurate.

[Kagemusha]

It wasnt just Date and Shimazu. Samurai started to adopt teppo more and more during the end of the period. So they would move on horseback and fight on foot.

[seienchin]

In another thread I brought up how I would prefer to see the units done, which was component customization rather than pre-configured static units. However, since they most certainly won't do this I was wondering how exactly there are planning to get 30-40 units in Shogun without coming up with nonsense. After doing some research and fiddling around, I came up with the below:

Well samurai didnt fight separated by their weapons. It was perfectly normal having a samurai with a naginata standing next to one with two katanas.
My guess is that this will be one of the new features: Mixed units.
Off course there at the end of sengoku jidai wise generals grooped their samurais according to their weapons, but it wasnt something most generals focused on. The exception beeing guns and yari ashigaru, because this was their most common weapon.

Anyway I am expecting units mixed with clubs, swords and bows. My dreams would come true, if you could let a champion of your army challenge one of the other army for a duell, like it was common in early sengoku jidai.

By the way. Tetsubo is just like daikatana a word creation that didnt exist in sengoku jidai. Its called kanasaibo in japanese.

[General Malaise]

This thread is getting too de-railed into historical discussion. I'm aware of the mixed unit thing, however I don't think they will do this and I personally hope they do not. I'd much prefer the tactical options and considerations that come from staying with one weapon to a unit rather than complete historical accuracy. If I was being really accurate I wouldn't have put up the nodachi, nagamaki, kanabo/tetsubo, or ono/masakari at all since they were very rarely used in actual battles.

Historically accurate sengoku jidai warfare is basically going to be push-of-pikes (yari) plus guns with some naginata and yumi thrown in and that's about it. Real warfare in general is very boring, repetitive, and random. Verisimilitude and immersion is important to me in a game, hence my concern about very silly units like battlefield ninja again, but total factuality is not (and is better avoided). Another way to put it is to give options that a daimyo theoretically could have employed and *feel* real on a battlefield, like simply equipping your samurai with nagamaki even though it was actually rare, as opposed to units that have semi-magical powers like hiding in plain sight.

[Tsar Alexsandr]

I as well was kinda off put by the "Battlefield Ninja" of the original. Fantasy units don't really do much for me..... XD

I am actually okay with Battlefield Ninja. But they would have to be altered. Ninja in battle would be given a highly specialized role. And in fact, some "ninja" were merely superb marksmen. So throw a lot of Ninja marksmen into a unit, and you have a excellent squad of marksmen. Other ninja would specialize in demolition. Basically they'd just be a highly skilled unit for a specific mission. They'd also have to be costly, hard to tech up to, and a small in their unit numbers.

Sticking close to history is very important for me, and the more accurate it is the better. But hopefully we will have options Sengoku commanders didn't explore much. Like units of kanasaibo and nagamaki. :D As well as No-Daichi. I enjoyed the No-Daichi from the original Shogun Total War. :D

The black masked, robed, battlefield ninjas were a bit much.... XD I rarely used them. Regular troops were far more effective. Totally ruling out rare or fantasy units though might create a less enjoyable experience though. The battlefield ninjas and kensai were.... XD Hmmm.... I always thought using them was, I didn't enjoy it anyhow... XD

Hopefully hero characters are less ridiculous than Kensai. But somehow, I see them being a lot like the kensai. Hopefully there's not a ton of them.

Mostly I just can't wait to see my armies of Samurai sweeping across Japan. XD

[General Malaise]

I'm pretty sure I read that hero units would be attached to a unit, like the little unit commanders from Rome on are, who have different armor and/or carry the banner. So, for now, I'm not *too* worried about them as they also said they'd largely be about providing morale bonuses.

As for guns from horseback, if they functioned like dragoons, I'm not sure how this would work in STW2. Unless the battlefields are huge, they generally aren't big enough to make riding to the battle, then getting off to shoot, then back on to ride away, really viable or sensible in my opinion. Although, perhaps dragoon-like units would just have better movement points or whatever on the strat map and shoot on foot in the tactical map. That would be neat.


EDIT: Unrelated, by why is it this forum seems pretty dead in comparison to twcenter and official one? I tried reading over there but most of the posts gave me migraines...

[antisocialmunky]

Making every cavalry unit dismountable would be nice as that's how cavalry operated for the most part during the period IIRC.

[Tsar Alexsandr]

I'm pretty sure I read that hero units would be attached to a unit, like the little unit commanders from Rome on are, who have different armor and/or carry the banner. So, for now, I'm not *too* worried about them as they also said they'd largely be about providing morale bonuses.

As for guns from horseback, if they functioned like dragoons, I'm not sure how this would work in STW2. Unless the battlefields are huge, they generally aren't big enough to make riding to the battle, then getting off to shoot, then back on to ride away, really viable or sensible in my opinion. Although, perhaps dragoon-like units would just have better movement points or whatever on the strat map and shoot on foot in the tactical map. That would be neat.


EDIT: Unrelated, by why is it this forum seems pretty dead in comparison to twcenter and official one? I tried reading over there but most of the posts gave me migraines...

Ahhh! The Hero's are connected to a unit. Well that is a lot better. :D

I would prefer the Teppo cavalry to act like musket armed cavalry archers, but that's just my preference. Whatever they settle upon will be fine. I'm sure I'll still get some ranged cavalry. :D