A Bridge Zhou Far - Three Stars Rising [Concluded]

[Double A]

Speak for yourself. I am invincible

Drizzt will save us!

[landlubber]

Agree:Wenti.

[DELETE_THIS]

Agree: Wenti They will not expect such a strong assault there, maybe we can destroy the bridge afterwards to halt the stinking smell that is breathing down our necks.

[Joooray]

Well I agree with Romanic there, Agree: Lanmu Bridge. (the rope bridge, seems like Subo made a mistake in his example)

I don't mind a fight personally, but considering we will be most probably further decreased in number in 3 days and even now are in no fighting shape for what might await us at the Wenti bridge, I'd take my chance with the Lanmu Bridge. Just let everybody carefully cross with all the essential supplies and then some from the bad list try to get the heavier stuff over.
Further we might want to cut the bridge after we have crossed, maybe we can hinder the movement of the ones following us this way. And remember that during the assault on our camp they had tanks and other heavy war machinery, those will surely not be able to cross the Lanmu bridge so that may give us some edge in the future. If they are aware of the terrain our pursuers might even be heading to the stone bridge already, if we are unlucky we might have to face both force there. Who knows?

[GeneralHankerchief]

Folks, the mountain gun is a gift. A gift to the foes of the Revolution. Why not use this mountain gun? Long have our comrades, the soldiers of Pexdet, kept the forces of Japanese and the KMT at bay. By the blood of our people are our lands kept safe. Give this detachment the weapon of the enemy. Let us use it against them!

...wait, bad example...

[Subotan]

Err, yes, Joooray is correct, Lanmu Bridge should be chosen instead of Nuqi Bridge

[Sigurd]

Agree: Lanmu Bridge

I don't have to explain how the hammer and anvil tactic that will be used on us should we opt for the stone bridge, would affect a 26 man troop.
KMT bogging us down on the bridge and then the Japanese will hit us in the rear = GAME OVER!!!

[Death is yonder]

Agree: Lanmu Bridge

Pssh, toss the guns over the side! Cross the rope bridge! If it was good for 1000 years it should be good for another 1000

[Death is yonder]

(Wanted to edit since I thought of something but thought to play safe just in case edited votes aren't counted)

Hmm, IMO it seems like the incidents could possibly be based from Communist Manifesto or other doctrines by Mao. EG: How to treat peasants, and now this. It could be that Romanic is right and we should take the bridge. (Then again I'm not an expert in this history field)

[ArpeggiateTHIS]

I think I'll take my chances with the rope bridge. Vote: Lanmu Bridge

[DELETE_THIS]

Agree: Lanmu Bridge

Pssh, toss the guns over the side! Cross the rope bridge! If it was good for 1000 years it should be good for another 1000

Yes because we can totally fight with sticks and stones...
You seem a bit too eager to throw away our weapons and go over a rope bridge that could easily be a trap. What if the bridge is cut while we are on it?!
Vote: Death is yonder

[Renata]

unagree, agree Lanmu Bridge to get it right, though I'm still thinking.

[Renata]

Yes because we can totally fight with sticks and stones...
You seem a bit too eager to throw away our weapons and go over a rope bridge that could easily be a trap. What if the bridge is cut while we are on it?!
Vote: Death is yonder

Whereas you want to walk right into a fortified position that we *know* is there?

Also -- it's night time.

Also -- according to the list Romanic gave me yesterday, this is your first vote the entire game. Why so interested now, Nictel?

[ULC]

Vote: Lanmu Bridge, just in case. I'm not in the mood to sacrifice ourselves because our leader thinks "Mountain Gun" = able to take on entrenched defenses - first of all, it's an MMG, it fires medium power rounds that can only break concrete, not truly penetrate it, has poor reliability, feeds from magazines, not a belt. Our enemies will have HMG's, using much larger rounds, from more solide defenses, feed from large belts of ammo with less feed reliability.

He obviously has no head for tactics and has the mind of a KMT officer - throw the peasants at it till it gets fixed. Again, I do not trust our Dear Leader any further then I can throw him.

All that is going to happen is people are going to get killed, and you can all blame our Dear Leader - his incompetence is getting on my nerves, and he should be ousted to prevent ANYMORE foolish decisions. In the very words of our true inspiration -

In guerrilla warfare, select the tactic of seeming to come from the east and attacking from the west; avoid the solid, attack the hollow; attack; withdraw; deliver a lightning blow, seek a lightning decision. When guerrillas engage a stronger enemy, they withdraw when he advances; harass him when he stops; strike him when he is weary; pursue him when he withdraws. In guerilla strategy, the enemy's rear, flanks, and other vulnerable spots are his vital points, and there he must be harassed, attacked, dispersed, exhausted and annihilated. Only in this way can guerrillas carry out their mission of independent guerrilla action and coordination with the effort of the regular armies. But, in spite of the most complete preparation, there can be no victory if mistakes are made in the matter of command. Guerilla warfare based on the principles we have mentioned and carried out over a vast extent of territory in which communications are inconvenient will contribute tremendously towards ultimate defeat of the Japanese and consequent emancipation of the Chinese people. – Mao Zedong, on Guerrilla Warfare

Our very leader is either grossly incompetent or KMT TRASH!

[Renata]

Amusing as that was, YLC, there's a matter of the investigations that were mentioned. Why are you still pushing it?

If anyone who usually talks to me online wants to help me go through Psychonaut's posts and the bandwagon on Niklas, I'd be most appreciative.

[Death is yonder]

Yes because we can totally fight with sticks and stones...
You seem a bit too eager to throw away our weapons and go over a rope bridge that could easily be a trap. What if the bridge is cut while we are on it?!
Vote: Death is yonder

You seem to be missing the point that this is a mafia game and you are voting me on the basis of suggesting that we throw away our fluff,

(not going to change the game drastically, unless your telling me that somehow you have prior knowledge that the game is going to end in some final battle dependent on our arsenal)

so that what was once nigh impossible

(come on, you want us to cross a rope bridge dragging mortars? OR you want us to charge into a fortress with machine guns and a single artillery piece?)

is now possible (crossing the rope bridge with a greatly reduced chance of bridge collapsing etc)

I don't buy it.

Vote: Nictel

I stand by my opinion that incidents here are likely drawn from Mao's personal doctrines in which case, should likewise be resolved as suggested by the great man himself.

Edit: Hmm rechecked the rules because I'd like to continually avoid double posting, seems like editing a vote post should be fine as long as I don't edit away my vote.

Also Nictel,

What if the bridge is cut while we are on it?!

You suggest here that our glorious revolution will be instantly beheaded in one swift stroke? All the loyal communist swept in one fell swoop? Come on

[Renata]

You mean what YLC posted?

Also -- it's nighttime.

[Death is yonder]

Right...

Unvote: Nictel

I seem to have this nasty habit of overdoing living in the present

Nevermind, tomorrow's vote then.

[miotas]

Forgive this ignorant, unread peasant. We should follow the teachings of our great leader Chairman Mao.

unagree, agree: Lanmu Bridge

[autolycus]

I do not think we have the time or the people to storm the Wenti Bridge
Agree: Lanmu

[ULC]

Amusing as that was, YLC, there's a matter of the investigations that were mentioned. Why are you still pushing it?

If anyone who usually talks to me online wants to help me go through Psychonaut's posts and the bandwagon on Niklas, I'd be most appreciative.

Which hold how much wanter? Or have you been blind to the double standard presented so far? Because being found "loyal" holds no water at all. I take anything our Officers and especially GH say or do with a grain of poisonous salt.

[DELETE_THIS]

Whereas you want to walk right into a fortified position that we *know* is there?

Also -- it's night time.

Also -- according to the list Romanic gave me yesterday, this is your first vote the entire game. Why so interested now, Nictel?

Yes, no unpleasant surprises.

And oops, didn't notice...

And cause summer break started last Monday :P So now I actually got time to be interested :-)

[Double A]

Ok, if we have some bad lists take the mountain gun over... then if it gets over, hooray, if not, hilarity ensues.

unagree: Wenti
agree: Lanmu, Joooray style

[Renata]

Review of Psychonaut's posts and the Niklas bandwagon here. Executive summary if you don't want to read the whole thing, which is pretty much stream-of-consciousness:

Suspicion on the following for being Kuomintang:
Romanic. The reasons are complex, since I've been working with him in our clique since day one, and I'll have to use a separate post to explain.
Cute Wolf -- At one point Psychonaut helpfully pointed out that Cute Wolf did not belong on the naughty list.

General Suspicion
wideeyedwanderer. See posts 500 and 504 in the Niklas bandwagon, which are both so scummish they make my teeth itch. About five classic scum tells over the course of two posts. I am now hugely suspicious of him, though I can't pin him as KMT or not.
M3YUZ
AVSM. Both of these two showed up to vote on the verge of WOG (explicitly so warned, by Subotan), then disappeared again.
landlubber. See posts 514 and 520. A vote on Niklas with no explanation, then when challenged says his reasons are the same as Psychonaut's. But Psychonaut didn't *give* any reason that were accessible to the general public -- nobody who commented that day other than landlubber gave the slightest indication they had any idea what Psychonaut was talking about. Clearly a false rationale for his vote, could indicate he has special knowledge of one side or the other of Psychonaut's accusation or could indicate he has no interest in the topic at all.


Conditional Suspicion:
ArpeggiateTHIS
Sigurd
Cute Wolf
DiY
Sigurd and DiY questioned "why Niklas" and refused to vote for him; Cute Wolf voted for JHT instead of Niklas when it was still relatively early in the day (originator of that bandwagon) and the bandwagon might have reversed. For ArpTHIS see below. Here's the reason for the conditional suspicion, Psychonaut's only post on the subject, what everyone responding to that accusation was dealing with and all they had to deal with:

Someone doesn't like my work obviously. For the love of all things holy lynch:

ArpeggiateTHIS
Niklas

Then grill a few semi-lurkers, one of them is the hairy guy and the remaining 1-2 Japs.

Infact. 100% lynch Niklas. There's a reason they killed me with a sword. Someone wanted to bring me over to the Jap team, but couldn't. So they thought they'd off me instead.

I had been under the impression that Psychonaut said explicitly that he had been recruited by the Japanese (which had failed). He didn't actually say that. So even given the visible failed recruitment of DiY, it's entirely possible Psychonaut was not lying here, but just stating what he believed to be the truth. Which means he has some reason to believe that ArpeggiateTHIS and especially Niklas might be Japanese. He could be right. So if Niklas flips Japanese, the players in that list need some closer attention. ArpTHIS possibly even if Niklas does not flip Japanese.

Probably NOT Kuomintang
Sigurd (big argument with Psychonaut)
ArpTHIS ("FOS"'ed by Psychonaut twice)
Double A early exchange with Psychonaut about the "failed" protection on taka, supported vote against Niklas in a really open fashion

In the spoiler section, for anyone who doesn't take one look and run away screaming, posts in parentheses are not from Psychonaut but rather in reference to him.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Post 107: election – “I feel that GH is a good choice.”

(157 DiY random-votes Psychonaut)

End of day one, no posts

Post 350 (day of Beefy’s lynch) – The unanimous voting isn’t so bad: “A couple votes this round have tweaked my gut, in a few rounds I can see some potential cases opening up.” Votes Beefy.

(373 Psychonaut FOS from Beskar due to protection group on taka having failed and Psychonaut part of that group along with Beskar himself (who also died), CDF, and Double A. So perhaps Double A’s incorrect orders DID matter? Though it’s not impossible Psychonaut actually was doing what he was told,.)

389 – defends against insinuation he was not doing what he was told: points out double A’s wording, says protection group would have worked with three anyway, speculates taka was killed through protection with random.org taking out Beskar as well. Despite the source, I think this is the most likely interpretation. Votes Sigurd because he “Gut says so, so it must be done.” Pointless vote, but very early in the day; Sigurd probably not KMT.

(390 – double A defends himself; subo wouldn’t be that literal. Doubt Double A is KMT either.)

(397 – Beskar responding to Psycho’s comment about Double A, says it’s a shame Double A didn’t die.)

(399 – Romanic agrees with Psychonaut that it was probably a kill through protection. While this is the most obvious explanation under the circumstances (even with a known KMT in the group), inherent FOS for him mentioning it RIGHT THEN, when Psychonaut was in the spotlight.) Romanic also gets the target wrong, so I doubt he’s the hairy man. And he pushes against the GH administration based on that false assumption. He also speaks about rumors that Beskar is not a vanilla townie, but ….)

(402 – GH denies ever hearing any such rumors. I hadn’t heard any such rumors. Where are the rumors going on? In the KMT quicktopic?)

467 – Psychonaut complains about the shlin lynch, says Sigurd (who “tweaks his gut”) and ArpeggiateTHIS (for voting AVSM) should both be lynched. Sigurd and ArpTHIS both low likelihood of being KMT. Psychonaut also points out Cute Wolf as having voted and so not belonging on the naughty list – just helpful, or helping a teammate? How plausible is his role claim?

473-480 – Lots of back and forth between Psychonaut and Sigurd over which of them is actually suspicious. If they’re both KMT I’ll eat my hat.

480 – Claims he thinks he knows what the hairy killer is, but doesn’t want to speculate.

(484, Psychonaut’s death. The write-up implies he actually was following orders, for whatever that’s worth.)

(489 from Romanic, concluding from the write-up that Psychonaut was a special protective role who died instead of his target – which is pretty much not even close to implied by the words actually written. I think this is fake. Clever, but fake.)

498 He advocates lynching Niklas out of the blue (and ArpThis, but drops the previous accusation against Sigurd), saying Niklas must be a Jap who killed him because he was unable to recruit him. This is interesting – I was under the impression that Psychonaut said flat out that he knew he had been the target of a recruitment attempt. He didn’t, at least not here. (edit: nope, nowhere) He implied that (because how else could he draw that conclusion), but he didn’t say it. In retrospect, even assuming as I do that failed recruitments are always public like DiY’s was, he may not actually have been lying. But why Niklas?

Ok, the Niklas bandwagon:

499 Double A, confident Psycho is not anti-town. Honest vote, I think.
500 from wideyedwanderer: no vote, but says Niklas seems suspicious. Classic scum-tell. If not for Romanic I might be trying to vig him.
503 AVSM’s one and only vote this game, a completely ridiculous one. He and M3YUK both showing up this day just not to get wogged, apparently.
504 wideyedwanderer votes Niklas, again with a scummish disclaimer that he has to get a vote in and might not get another chance
507 Captain Blackadder. The vote is ok and doesn’t ping.
508 Seamus. Ok vote, will defer to officers on his loyalty.
509 ArpTHIS, self-proclaimed bandwagoning. Silly vote, but the post itself doesn’t read as self-conscious in a scummy sort of way.
510 Sigurd questions why Niklas, not exactly surprising.
511 DiY votes cute wolf for placing an easy vote on JHT earlier in the day (missed that one somewhere). Also asks why Psychonaut is so sure the Japanese tried to recruit him, which is what everyone should have been asking. Why did only DiY and Sigurd even question this lynch?
514 landlubber votes Niklas, with no reason given, just a vote
517 flax agrees with DiY on cute wolf
518 so does JHT
519 CDF is willing to go with his protection partner and votes Niklas; like with Double A, this feels transparent enough
520 after being questioned by Blackadder, landlubber clarifies that his reasons for voting Niklas are the same as Psychonaut’s. But Psychonaut didn’t give any open reasons!
521 romanic votes cute wolf with no explanation
522 secura defends cute wolf
524 auto votes JHT
525 sigurd doesn’t like any of the options and votes Nictel


In summary, being on the road that day sucked. SO MUCH INFO there, and I missed it all.

I need lunch.

[Romanic]

Romanic. The reasons are complex, since I've been working with him in our clique since day one, and I'll have to use a separate post to explain.

Hah, you're picking the right time for this. I'm moving to a new place tomorrow, so, er I won't have much time to debate this with you today/tomorrow if you make a big and detailed post.

Convenient for me? I told you that I was moving before you throw suspicions at me, and besides, I can prove it somewhat: it's Moving Day in Quebec. Everybody moves on July 1st here. If you're going to accuse me tomorrow, I'll be very easy to lynch, as it will be the first day in weeks that I might not be able to log on.

unagree; agree Lanmu, to fix the naming error.

[Renata]

I know you're moving; that part isn't really nice about it all.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Our very leader is either grossly incompetent or KMT TRASH!

Shoo fly. You've done nothing this entire game but complain, and it grows tiresome.

[Renata]

Romanic.

First, the history of Fengxi Clique.

Night One, my choice of protection -- Beefy (Romanic had previously narrowed it down to Chaotix or Beefy from a list of ten or so offered by Flax)
Night Two, Flax's choice -- Nictel (from a choice of Nictel, Niklas or Pinman offered by me)
Night Three, Romanic's -- wideyedwanderer (think he suggested this one himself)
Night Four, supposed to be mine but Flax got in ahead -- Secura
Night Five, I demanded my choice, picking M3YUZ intending to go for a vig/protect scheme to double check on Flax and Romanic doing what they said they were doing, but I couldn't get enough takers, and when GH popped up with a protection request, we did that instead.
Night Six, again working for GH

So couple that with Flax's claim that he was able to take two actions because he was in a clique, and the night two and three choices from the pair of them start to look interesting.

So that's the suggestive part; here's the actual evidence part. First, Romanic has several times evidenced knowledge of what's going on in the game that he should not have had. For instance, he talked about the reactionaries needing to investigate prior to recruiting someone. If this is the case, it's not in the rules, it's not typical of recruiting games, and it hasn't been stated to be so in the write-ups. Second, there was Romanic's statement from I think day two (post number given above in that spoiler bit) that rumors were going around that Beskar was not vanilla town. Yet GH hadn't heard of any such speculation, nor had I, nor did anyone else step forward to say that they had. He must have heard it somewhere, though, because that's the best rationale I can think of for assuming that Beskar and not taka was the intended kill target of the hairy man -- Romanic was already thinking of Beskar as a worthwhile kill. Quicktopic leakage? Wouldn't be the first time.

Finally, the connections with Psychonaut. I hadn't even expected to find any, this morning -- my suspicion of Romanic was up to that point a separate thing from wanting to look through Psychonaut's posts to see who turned up as suspiciously connected to the known KMT. But I did find something.
From my previous post:

(399 – Romanic agrees with Psychonaut that it was probably a kill through protection. While this is the most obvious explanation under the circumstances (even with a known KMT in the group), inherent FOS for him mentioning it RIGHT THEN, when Psychonaut was in the spotlight.) Romanic also gets the target wrong, so I doubt he’s the hairy man. And he pushes against the GH administration based on that false assumption.

(489 from Romanic, concluding from the write-up that Psychonaut was a special protective role who died instead of his target – which is pretty much not even close to implied by the words actually written. I think this is fake. Clever, but fake.)

521 romanic votes cute wolf with no explanation

That's pretty much every time Romanic did anything remotely connected with Psychonaut, and every single one of them is suggestive or feels artificial. The kill through protection thing is perfectly reasonable, but the motivation for a teammate of Psychonaut's to point that out at that time is huge, and the fact remains that of everyone in the game who might have drawn that conclusion, Romanic is the only one who said so. Concluding Psychonaut was a special protective role -- that's just SO far off from what's written in the write-up (it's crystal clear that Psychonaut was protecting as part of a group) -- that you have to wonder what Romanic was doing. If he just skimmed, fine, but then why bring it up as if he had read it carefully? I think he just wanted a counterfactual to point to for later use. Go read the post and see what you think; it feels artificial. And the vote on cute wolf at the tail end of the Niklas bandwagon, with no comment, which is very uncharacteristic of him. But maybe not if a teammate was driving the lynch wagon. (And certainly not if it was a chance to get in a cheap vote on another teammate, cute wolf -- see my previous post for Psychonaut's connection to him.)

And I'm not sure where this fits, but Romanic is very aware of what Psychonaut said about being recruited by the Japanese -- he pointed it out several times, first when I had all but missed it due to being away that week and then a few times thereafter in service of one or another argument. He treated it as established fact. (Yet he never took it as a sign that the KMT might be able to kill just the same as the Japanese could recruit -- why not?)

I'd like to get more into Romanic's posts outside the restricted timeframe of Psychonaut's tenure in the game and the Niklas lynch, but I'm out of time, and to be honest I don't know if there's anything suspicious there anyway. What I do have is enough for me to want him lynched.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Agree: Lammu (rope) Bridge

** OOC: Mao may have purloined most of his guerilla dicta from Sun Tzu, but that doesn't mean they were wrong. Do the unexpected is very far up the list.

[Renata]

Ugh, I totally forgot yesterday:

Romanic told me he was NOT suspicious of GH, yet voted for revolt anyway; and he believed Flax was guilty yet didn't seem to want to vote for him (and did not). At one point I think he suggested voting Cute Wolf instead, not seeming to realize that CW had claimed as a power role --- not sure what that adds up to. But the first two things are just so backwards -- what were you trying to accomplish, Romanic?