The Saville report into Bloody Sunday

[Banquo's Ghost]

The long awaited report by Lord Saville into the killings on Bloody Sunday has been published.

In a nutshell, he has found what everyone already knew: The British Army shot unarmed civilians for no very good reason and then lied about it through a couple of inquiries.

Prime Minister Cameron has given a dignified response to Parliament and acknowledged what should have been said thirty years ago.

What David Cameron said:

What happened was "wrong".
Troops went in as a result of a order that should not have been given.
The first shot in the vicinity of the march was fired by the British Army.
None of those killed was armed.
There was some firing by republican paramilitaries, but none of this was justification for the reaction of the soldiers.
No warning was given by British soldiers.
It was a loss of self control by soldiers.
Some of those shot and injured were clearly fleeing or aiding other wounded.
One man was shot when was lying fatally wounded on ground.
None of the casualties were doing anything that could justify their killing.
You do not defend the British Army by defending the indefensible.
No point in trying to soften or equivocate what is in this report.
He said the tribunal found that some soldiers had "knowingly put forward false accounts".
Bloody Sunday was not the defining story of the army in Northern Ireland. He said the British Army, over the course of the Troubles, "had displayed enormous courage and professionalism in upholding democracy and the rule of law".
More than 1,000 members of the security forces lost their lives during the Troubles.
The prime minister also acknowledged the grief of the families: "Nothing can bring back those that were killed but I hope, as one relative has put it, the truth coming out can set people free."

The key lessons for me were always apparent: Don't deploy aggressive forces like paratroopers on a police mission (you don't train them to be passive and thoughtful) and if you murder civilians willy-nilly you guarantee recruitment for terrorists.

Now, enough is enough. I really hope they don't go down the route of trying to prosecute soldiers - the truth is enough and Ireland has long moved on.

[gaelic cowboy]

Yes I agree we have moved on and I hope the relatives of the people killed that day can now rest easier.

Seen Cameron on RTE good speech and good to see he said sorry to the families.



One final point yes we have moved on here but the troops and officers should be prosecuted they broke the law and murdered people thats not acceptable. If convictions are impossible due to loss of crucial evidence etc then they should just be man enough to admit there guilt in an open forum and ask forgiveness from the families.


At long last a dark cloud in relations between the two traditions and the two islands is removed from the scene long may it continue.

[Beskar]

You beat me to it, Banquo.

[Vladimir]

So unlike the Boston Massacre, this is actually England's fault.

That's horrible and took a lot of courage on behalf of the PM. I agree with Banquo: Don't send your most aggressive troops on a police mission, send the (military) police.

Thirty years is a long time. I thought the UK was more open than that.

[rory_20_uk]

We're pretty closed in reality. Just more open that places such as France.

[johnhughthom]

One final point yes we have moved on here but the troops and officers should be prosecuted they broke the law and murdered people thats not acceptable. If convictions are impossible due to loss of crucial evidence etc then they should just be man enough to admit there guilt in an open forum and ask forgiveness from the families.

We have a situation in Northern Ireland where hundreds of terrorists are free after committing crimes just as abhorrent as those committed on Bloody Sunday. Why should the soldiers be treated any differently? Perhaps you mean have trial so those responsible can be held accountable and not given a custodial sentence? What's the point, it had been shown there was no justification for their actions. As for an open forum asking for forgiveness, so we get the IRA/INLA/UDA/UVF men up and get them to do the same?

[gaelic cowboy]

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[Pannonian]

One final point yes we have moved on here but the troops and officers should be prosecuted they broke the law and murdered people thats not acceptable. If convictions are impossible due to loss of crucial evidence etc then they should just be man enough to admit there guilt in an open forum and ask forgiveness from the families.

Why stir up the politics again? We're not going to press for the prosecution of republican killers for pre-Agreement actions, so why the converse? The inquiry should be for historical purposes only, with the difference that the people involved and affected are still alive.

[gaelic cowboy]

deleted post

[gaelic cowboy]

deleted

I have broken my promise not to post I am lessened

[tibilicus]

The report should serve to close the chapter of painful history known as the "troubles". Prosecuting is a bad idea. The British army, Loyalist paramilitaries and Nationalist paramilitaries all have their fair share of inexcusable crimes. As already mentioned, prosecuting the troops would be daft. We currently have certified former terrorists sat in the Northern Irish executive, do you think anyone has the moral authority to prosecute the troops involved in such circumstances?

I do hope however that the Nationalist community also refrains from using it as justification for the various atrocities they committed over the years. Neither side can claim the moral high ground in Northern Ireland, both sides need to move on and hopefully this report wont prevent that.

[johnhughthom]

I am deleting my two post in reply to two people here in this thread. It seems I have hit a nerve with them so I will abstain from this thread from now on.

I didn't read your posts but I can guess their content, personally I have no problem with your viewpoint and can understand the reasoning. I don't see why you can't post them here, it's what the Backroom is for, right?

[Rhyfelwyr]

How much can this inquiry even be trusted anyway? I don't really know the ins and outs of it, but there would be an obvious political motive in that condemning the soldiers will allow them to close the book on all those events, and show the republicans that the British state isn't working against them. Some views from military figures are on the BBC site. <--- link there, doesn't show up well in the new skin

"I think Lord Saville felt under very considerable pressure after 12 years and £191m to give a report which gave very clear findings, even in truth where the evidence didn't support them.

"What's he's had to do is to adopt the pieces of evidence that fitted the theory and abandoned those that didn't."

[Furunculus]

sure, in this incident they appear to have acted badly, and worse by covering it up, but it pales against the staggering good conduct over decades of nasty insurrection and terrorism.

there are IRA scum walking free to this day because 'reconciliation' was needed, well that works both ways.

[Beskar]

People can kiss and make-up, and move on. Only a good thing.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I am deleting my two post in reply to two people here in this thread. It seems I have hit a nerve with them so I will abstain from this thread from now on.

I suspect you are the one with a raw nerve, which while understandable, does not the make the prosecuting of British soldiers an acceptable outcome. The paramilitarties have been either pardoned or given immunity, the same must now be done for the paratroopers. Especially as we will never know which of them actually shot anyone.

[Rhyfelwyr]

there are IRA scum walking free to this day because 'reconciliation' was needed, well that works both ways.

Never mind walking free, they are sitting in Stormont!

People can kiss and make-up, and move on. Only a good thing.

Well if they had been doing that why have this report?

The whole thing just seems like some feel-good politics, regardless of the reality. It's like with the arms decomissioning, yeah let them hand in some redundant weapons that are decades old. Loyalist communities got some investment out of it, some killers got off the hook, and the government gets to tell people the paramilitaries are disarmed. Then the UVF goes and shoots people in broad daylight...

[gaelic cowboy]

I am deeply depressed at the majority of the posts does everyone think I posted some kind of tribal point scoring for the IRA is that what you all think I did.

Amazingly I had deleted two posts precisely because I wanted to avoid getting stuck in a swamp of "what about this" and "what about that" back and forth all day

Truly the land of the dreary steeples

Is the peace that fragile and the truth that toxic that we cannot say yes this is what we must do.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Excellent report*, long overdue.

*Or such is my wild guess, since I have of course not read a single letter of it.



To prosecute or not to prosecute - I am not sure what I think should be done.
South Africa didn't prosecute. Germany did. Sharpeville shooters still go free, there has been a truth and reconcilliation effort. German soldiers are prosecuted for having shot unarmed people at the wall, often decades later. The thought behind the latter is that there are innate human values a soldier needs to adhere to. There is no such thing as 'order is order'.

Which would be my verdict about the paramilitary too: the politicians are to blame, but so is each and every single soldier who partook in the shootings. They can not be excused by saying that they shouldn't have been put in that position.

As we speak, Demjanjuk - ninety years old - is prosecuted for crimes committed in the 1940's. Part of me rejoices at the sight of seeing a murderer prosecuted, of whatever age, however long ago it may have been.

[johnhughthom]

Personally I thought you posted something along the lines of "States and the armies representing States should always be held accountable for crimes against civilians, hence the comparison with treatment of terrorists is irrelevant."

edit: replying to gaelic cowboy.

[gaelic cowboy]

Personally I thought you posted something along the lines of "States and the armies representing States should always be held accountable for crimes against civilians, hence the comparison with treatment of terrorists is irrelevant."

edit: replying to gaelic cowboy.

Exactly my point

They should be held to a higher standard and they should act in good faith even when one or both side of communities may not act the same back.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Hah! Ninja'd! I sneaked in one of those irritating posts that are submitted just before a reply to somebody else.


Edit: As is the way of the world, I have just been ninja'd in the exact same manner myself.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I am deeply depressed at the majority of the posts does everyone think I posted some kind of tribal point scoring for the IRA is that what you all think I did.

If that was what we thought the reaction would have been violent. It has not been, we merely catagorically refuse to accept your point.

Amazingly I had deleted two posts precisely because I wanted to avoid getting stuck in a swamp of "what about this" and "what about that" back and forth all day

Truly the land of the dreary steeples

Is the peace that fragile and the truth that toxic that we cannot say yes this is what we must do.

You can't distinguish between the two without de-ligimising the entire Peace Process, because it relies on allowing that the PIRA was a legitimate paramilitary movement, and that their break-away groups were not. We also allow that the UVF was a legitimate militia to protect civilians.

The things you accused the paratroopers of doing (of which no individual can now EVER be convicted due to massive degradation of evidence) is exactly the same those things done by the First Minister of Northern Ireland.

He is a politician, they are all retired soldiers (some who went into special forces) drawing pensions. You cannot possibly prosecute one and not the other.

Prosecutions would not be in the public interest, they would simply harm the soldiers and their families and friends. They would also harm the regiment at a time when it is fightingt hard in Afganistan.

[gaelic cowboy]

If that was what we thought the reaction would have been violent. It has not been, we merely catagorically refuse to accept your point.

Why do you not accept the point that they should be prosecuted why should anyone be protected?????

You can't distinguish between the two without de-ligimising the entire Peace Process, because it relies on allowing that the PIRA was a legitimate paramilitary movement, and that their break-away groups were not. We also allow that the UVF was a legitimate militia to protect civilians.

This I may concede but I dont like it maybe if the governments had shown some backbone and helped SDLP an UUP things might be differant.

The things you accused the paratroopers of doing (of which no individual can now EVER be convicted due to massive degradation of evidence) is exactly the same those things done by the First Minister of Northern Ireland.

He is a politician, they are all retired soldiers (some who went into special forces) drawing pensions. You cannot possibly prosecute one and not the other.

Prosecutions would not be in the public interest, they would simply harm the soldiers and their families and friends. They would also harm the regiment at a time when it is fightingt hard in Afganistan.

All irrelevant if taken in the context of my thinking he would not even be in Stormont and so the need to molly coddle the "Regiment" would not exist.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

How much can this inquiry even be trusted anyway? I don't really know the ins and outs of it, but there would be an obvious political motive in that condemning the soldiers will allow them to close the book on all those events, and show the republicans that the British state isn't working against them. Some views from military figures are on the BBC site. <--- link there, doesn't show up well in the new skin

"I think Lord Saville felt under very considerable pressure after 12 years and £191m to give a report which gave very clear findings, even in truth where the evidence didn't support them.

"What's he's had to do is to adopt the pieces of evidence that fitted the theory and abandoned those that didn't."

The only problem with this attitude is that, extrapolating a bit, EVERY inquiry ever by anyone into any controversy cannot be trusted either because someone is whitewashing things or someone is doing a Breaker Morant. Ends up being counter-productive towards any effort to improve and encourages nothing but tit-for-tat response. That way lies Palestine/Israel....

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Why do you not accept the point that they should be prosecuted why should anyone be protected?????

It will not be accepted because no one else will be prosecuted in connection with violence. Since justice has to be applied equally it would be unjust to prosecute the soldiers.

This I may concede but I dont like it maybe if the governments had shown some backbone and helped SDLP an UUP things might be differant.

I didn't say I liked it, but it's how you achieve peace. In any case, if the PIRA aren't legitimate you then have to ask if the (operationally similar) IRA were; i.e. is Ireland legitimately independant. I don't think anyone wants to go there.

All irrelevant if taken in the context of my thinking he would not even be in Stormont and so the need to molly coddle the "Regiment" would not exist.

Thinking you at no point make clear. Calling for the prosecution of the paratroopers does not presuppose the prosecution of the First Minister.

[Fragony]

Now was that so hard

[Idaho]

I don't see any point in trying to identify/prosecute the soldiers. The whole point of the NI peace agreement was that we moved on and buried the past. This latest report should just be an adendum to the tombstone.

[gaelic cowboy]

All right then I say let them go free so, I will move on and I will say let them be given same treatment as the IRA/UVF etc I am big enough to accept that this is what must be done for the peace.

But I want to see them condemned just like the IRA/UVF types if one side are scum so are these men who are nothing but murderers in my view.

Fair play to Cameron yesterday he rightly condemned these men he could see that the families of the bereaved deserved an apology and that giving such did not weaken Britain but strengthen it in my view.

Long may peace and good relations continue between our two islands.


Included some reaction and articles on Bloody Sunday as usual the last link by Kevin Myers is full of historical nuggets the man is a veritable one man history book.

How the victims died

Cowen welcomes vindication at last for murdered civilians


Article on Parachute regiment and IRA makes depressing reading

[Pannonian]

All right then I say let them go free so, I will move on and I will say let them be given same treatment as the IRA/UVF etc I am big enough to accept that this is what must be done for the peace.

But I want to see them condemned just like the IRA/UVF types if one side are scum so are these men who are nothing but murderers in my view.

The IRA aren't scum. They're a chapter in the history books which has hopefully been consigned to the past thanks to our hardworking politicians. That the IRA and our hardworking politicians may be the same people is beside the point.