On unrest and devastation

[Guyus Germanicus]

Good suggestions from Master Samurai. I would add that if you're empire's geographic situation permits, change your capital city. Sometimes even doing it for one or two turns until a newly captured city's populace quiets down is all you need. When I'm playing the Julii and I've captured all of Spain and France and am moving into Britain, I change my capital to Marseilles (Messala). It quiets Corduba considerably. Corduba is definitely a prime candidate for a governor. Of course, with the Julii, the temple of Jupiter series tends to bestow some good admin qualities on your governors. This will enhance their positive public order effect on the city they govern.

When I'm playing Carthage, growth of population and squalor tends to self-neutralize over time resulting in ZPG.

There are limits to the garrison benefit. Once you've maxed it at 80%, adding new troops will not increase your public order benefit from the garrison. And by the same token, once the population gets really really large, there are not enough garrison slots in the city (you have 20) to achieve the 80% public order benefit from a garrison. In the end, all you can do is lower the tax rate and keep adding buildings that offer some PO benefit until you achieve ZPG. Once you reach ZPG, public disorder is no longer an issue.

I've never liked the idea of vacating a city, letting it go rebel, then besieging it anew and exterminating the population. Some RTW players like that method of city management, but I prefer other alternatives.

There are several towns that are especially PO pains in the arse. The largest is Alexandria. It grows like a weed, faster seomtimes than you can recruit troops to keep the garrison PO benefit high. Another is the little town of Deva in Wales. Invariably when you take that town, it retains a high public unrest % of 60-70% and only slowly comes down. Many is the time I've lost troops in Deva to rioting while playing the Julii. Even Tara, in Ireland, doesn't have the unrest problem that Deva shows. I can get Tara quiet, stabilized and productive long before Deva most of the time. Another is Nepte at the very southern border of your gameboard. It couples a modest unrest problem after capture with the fact that it is so distant from most capital cities. It's usually not worth capturing unless you're trying to finish off the faction that happens to occupy it.

Jerusalem also shows a PO volatility once the population gets really large. I think this is built into the game design based on the city's historical reputation. The Jews were always rebelling against their occupiers - Nebuchadnezzar (Babylonia), Antiochus Epiphanes (the Seleucid Empire), and twice against Rome requiring Hadrian and Vespasian to deal with them in the worst way - sacking, extermination and diaspora.

[ReluctantSamurai]

There are limits to the garrison benefit.

True. Especially when you hit the 12k or 24k mark. The method of adding one as needed is probably better <12k.

I've never liked the idea of vacating a city, letting it go rebel, then besieging it anew and exterminating the population. Some RTW players like that method of city management, but I prefer other alternatives.

I used to do this with any faction I played to the extent of having a roving "Exterminator"...a general & army who spent his entire career slaughtering city populations. Oh the monikers those generals would get "The Butcher", "The Murderer", etc.

Now I only do it when there's no alternative (Scythia gets no good law temple, for example, and Tanais & Chersonesos require periodic slaughtering due to the grain bonus)

I think this is built into the game design based on the city's historical reputation.

I believe it's 30% for this @#$% place! But I can get ZPG even here, so I rarely have to exterminate. Patavium is another like Jerusalem, IIRC, though for some reason I've never taken the time to see what the built-in unrest # is

[Guyus Germanicus]

One other minor note I'd like to add about unrest - sometimes the unrest is caused by the unseen spy. This is probably not the reason that inspired Bellecin to start this thread, but I thought I'd mention this stuff anyway. If you have a spy posted in your own city, you can usually see the spies of other factions coming. But there are times when your frontier city may suffer a sudden unexplained drop in public order and an increase in unrest, but the game does not 'report' the presence of a spy. That's because the spy may be especially adept or experienced at infiltration. A super experienced spy can infiltrate a city undetected even with your own spies posted in that city. You'll know it when it happens because you'll suddenly see your 'green' city turn blue.

Some factions are relentless in their use of spies. You can usually stop their violations by recruiting spies and keeping them stationed in your city with the espionage problem. The better the enemy spy, the more spies you'll need to stop the infiltration and reduce the unrest he causes. Get two or three spies in your city and even fairly good enemy spies will stop trying to infiltrate because the risk of being caught is too high. Sometimes they will try anyway. When they do its usually curtains. Give your spies easy assignments to build up their experience and they can 'see' farther (hence, lighting up more of the game map) and they become more effective at detecting infiltration reducing the success rate of enemy spies.

Budget for spies. They are extremely beneficial even when idle in a city posting. They tend to light up the mapboard around the area where they're stationed. I like finding hilltops or high points on the game map to post them. They're like little lamps that allow you to see enemy travel and army movements.

The Gauls like to post two to three spies outside Patavium after it has been captured. This is pretty typical behavior for most enemy factions. Carthage loves to post spies in Sicily outside every city after they've been thrown off the island. Sometimes they will attempt an infiltration, but usually they're just 'hanging out.' Spain constantly probes Corduba.

You'll often 'discover' that your city has been infiltrated by spies even though they may not be able to provoke unrest because your governor suddenly develops counter spy expertise. Governors good at counter espionage can reduce the unrest caused by successful infiltrations. They can increase the chance of catching enemy spies.

The more recent your city conquest the more susceptible that city is to unrest caused by spies. That's one reason why I like to recruit a spy within the first or second turn after I take a city. They will be needed for counter espionage, protecting your general from assassins, and for lighting up the mapboard around your city. Spies will help you see the presence of enemy assassins too.

I have occasionally seen unrest increase within a city simply because an enemy army or rebel band was close by. But this doesn't happen consistently.

And, of course, squalor can also be a cause of unrest. But the extent of the squalor-caused unrest seems to depend on the city as well.

[Bellicin]

Interesting, I had no idea spies caused unrest. Thanks for the tip!

Kind regards

[ReluctantSamurai]

I had forgotten the spy effect. One of my favorite tactics since STW was using spies to cause rebellions. In RTW, I tried using this tactic, as well, but finally gave up. I could have some success against non-Roman factions but only minimal against the Romans.

I don't know how the AI sets taxes when it controls a city, especially when there's a governor, but I could have 3-5 spies in a Roman city, see public loyalty drop to 0, and still not get a rebellion. Often the AI counters by giving the governor "law" ancillaries, or law-giving traits. It was all too frustrating so I gave up that aspect of the game.

The more recent your city conquest the more susceptible that city is to unrest caused by spies. That's one reason why I like to recruit a spy within the first or second turn after I take a city.

I do the same, and preferably with a skilled spy, as "spying talent" often won't cut it. I also usually have an experienced assassin along to kill off enemy spies and assassins.