Origin of Macedonians

[Imperator Invictus]

Why Getia has available type 2 government for the provinces of Macedonia and Epirus?

There are some Romanian nationalist historians who claim that The peoples of Macedonia and Epirus were Hellenized Thracians and that,s why they had been regarded by the greeks from Athens, Thebes etc, as semibarbarians, but I didn’t know that the EB team thinks the same.

Then, a type 2 government will be suitable also in Phrygia and Mysia, because the bryges and mysoi where Thracians in the view of all historians, and for Scordisci, because they will eventually end up dacianized in the first century.

We know that Justinian and Belisarius were latin speaking Thracians from Macedonia (latin speaking Thracian is echivalent for Romanian, Valachian) and also that ourdays Macedonia and Epirus are inhabited by Vlach shepards (Aromanians) who are under a long proces of Helenization but they still resist.
But if it proves that Philip and Alexander could be Thracians, that will be a shock for our southern Greek neighbors. We know that the Aromanians regard Alexander as one of their own and they have many songs about him in their traditions.

A link of aromanian song:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6y77blgi0g

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n5y0...eature=related

(as a Romanian speaker, I can say I understand 80% of what is he saying in this song)
Shame on those who say that we are not the same people.

[Burebista]

Salut . E bine sa stiu ca mai sunt romani pe aici:)

[Duguntz]

Nu numai romani, dar si persoane care vorbesc! Bine ati venit in forum asta Burebista!

[Noble Wrath]

@ Imperator Invictus
I don't want to sound impolite or anything but you touch on rather sensitive matters. My main disagreement with your post (if I understand you correctly) would be that you seem to accept the notion of an unbroken continuity of nations throughout large historical periods. According to which, societies divided by thousands of years, with different political structures, different codes of values, religions, even different genetic make-ups have something in common, something that survives unchanged, the national psyche or whatever. It is the same notion, expressed by (state-funded of course) nationalist historians in every little balkan country, that legitimizes in the eyes of the people territorial claims, claims of national ownership of symbols and names and paves the way for the power struggles between the countries of this area, struggles that are profitable only for the upper classes and certainly not for us, common people.

I say all this as a Greek citizen raised to believe, by the educational system, the church and other channels of propaganda, that the Greeks are the direct descendants of Leonidas and Socrates (no matter if most us have not read a single page of ancient literature), that the Turks are butchers because that's their national inclination , that all lands within the boundaries of the Byzantine Empire at the 9th century are enslaved national greek lands (it is beyond question of course that the Byzantine Empire was as greek as say the Athenian Hegemony) and of course that Macedonia was greek from the ancient times and it has remained so and that our Macedonian neighbours have no right to this name, because they are impostors who steal our history etc etc... I believe you will find some parallels to ideas spread in your own country.

That is not to say of course that modern societies are a product of parthenogenesis and they sure are the outcome of the evolution (most times gradual, sometimes precipitous) of the past ones. The Vlach minorities in Greece are definitely related to the Romanians and they have been slowly and not forcefully to my knowledge, hellenized. The same case with the Arvanites (Albanian) minority from which I am partially descended. Not the same case unfortunately with the (Slavo)Macedonian minority that was mostly integrated by force or expelled. You may ask, why am I typing all these OT things? It's because that I find highly alarming, that in a single post you discussed the origin of the ancient Macedonians, then moved on to talk about the Macedonian descend of 6th century AD figures and then about modern tribes/cultural/ethnic groups with (yet another) claim on Megas Alexandros. I am sorry, but I fail to find any connection between them apart that they lived in the same area. I may be overreacting but living nowadays in Greece or Macedonia/Fyrom/(insert name of choice here) can make you quite sensitive on this.

I understand that such a post is probably violating the rules of the Forum or/and it increases the possibility of this thread to degenerate into a nationalistic flame war, so if a mod thinks that it is me after all who touches on sensitive matters, please tell me and I will not discuss similar matters in the future. As for the original question, I am really interested in what the knowledgeable people around here have to say. I am under the impression that this is still a debated matter (as is the question whether the ancient Macedonian language was a Greek dialect or a distinct language) but that most probably the Makedones had a common ancestry with the Greeks but being geographically separated from one another, at least until the classical period, their societies developed differently. Now I don't know if that makes them a different nation (if such a thing could be precisely defined) and I don't know the extent of cultural/genetic exchange between the Makedones and their ''barbarian'' neighbours. I am looking forward to learn.

[Cute Wolf]

@ noble wrath : he was merely ask why are makedonians are regarded being semi barbaroi from other hellenes, and about the govt types...
And we all know that Makedonians is Greek, since they speak greek, and got greek educations, if their descendants become another nations, that was just fine thing

[Duguntz]

@ Imperator Invictus
As for the original question, I am really interested in what the knowledgeable people around here have to say. I am under the impression that this is still a debated matter (as is the question whether the ancient Macedonian language was a Greek dialect or a distinct language) but that most probably the Makedones had a common ancestry with the Greeks but being geographically separated from one another, at least until the classical period, their societies developed differently. Now I don't know if that makes them a different nation (if such a thing could be precisely defined) and I don't know the extent of cultural/genetic exchange between the Makedones and their ''barbarian'' neighbours. I am looking forward to learn.

Many people on this forum know much more on classical history and genealogy than i do. What I can say, is that no one can conveniantly prove their link with such great figure without being nationalistic. as you mentioned, greek say Alexander was greek, Macedonians (slavic one) say that he was macedonian, and now romanians say he was Trakian... it's as valid as if I said that because I'm half ameriandian, it was my ancestor that killed Custer at Little Big Horn battle... as you mentioned, the flux and changes of populations in those time were too frequent to have a solid base of argument. it is, however only my opinion.

[Hax]

I have a strong belief my ancestors (the Mongolians) murdered about a billion people. I have a strong belief my ancestors enslaved a couple of thousand people (the Dutch).

So what? Finding pride in your ancestry or nationality is pretty much useless. Was it your blood that was spilt? No, so don't feel proud of things that you haven't done.

Now, I hope we can continue discussing the ancestry of the Macedonians without this debate degrading to nationalistic nonsense.

[Imperator Invictus]

You are not impolite Noble Wrath, thank you for your intervention. But I wasn’t talking about claiming territories in the Balkans. I personally await the day when all our Balkan countries will be part of European Union who will evolve in a entity without internal borders, and all the peoples will be equal European citizens united in progress, ecology and pacifism. Those three are the European brands who will replace, in the future, American brands Coca-Cola, Hollywood etc.
The nationalist fanatics of all our nations will disappear in the future Europe.

But I simply think that, in History(and unfortunately in Europa Barbarorum), the ancestors of the most powerful countries of today are overestimated and other peoples like Thracians, Persians, Indians, Axumites etc, are shadowed.

For example: we have in EB a playable faction which is Casse, we all know than in that period, we had in Europe tens of peoples, city-states or tribes more important than the tribes of the small populated area of Britain and they are not playable, and in EB 2 I’ve heard that they will create another British faction.
Or in Medieval, we have Scotland but we didn’t have Sweden, Crimea, Moldavia, Wallachia, Bulgaria, Florence etc. even if they had a greater impact in that period than Scotland.
You all know about King Arthur and how he united small Romano British enclaves to stand against the invasion (Saxons) but you don’t know what ruler gathered up the small Romanized enclaves in Transylvania to stand against the invasion (Magyars), or what ruler gathered up the Slavic enclaves to stand against another invasion (Mongols). The most succesfull in this type of actions was not even Arthur, was Sygarius who united the Gallo-Roman enclaves against the invading Franks.
As for great generals of History, how many of you know about George Washington and how many about Khalid al Walid, who was a hundred times better general than George Washington.
The Thracians deserve equal share in ancient history with the Celts, Romans, Greeks, Egyptians, Indians, Scythians…

[Apázlinemjó]

@Imperator Invictus: First of all, there won't be a second faction on the British islands, the Pritanoi will replace the Casse. There is no more and less important people in history, but a game has it's limitation and the EB team had to choose between them to keep the map together, so we wouldn't see a half map occupied by Eleutheroi. Scotland had impact on the medieval history, for example check their wars against England. By the way, they were put in M2TW to balance out England probably, CA works that way.

About the invasion of Magyars, I've never heard about the "Romanized" encalves who stood up against the invasion in Transylvania (source?), and I doubt it could be a serious army, as the 7 Hungarian and 3 Kabar tribes which came into the Carpathian Basin had approximately 20 000 men as fighting force altogether. Or if you mean that by the theory of Daco-Romanian continuity, well that's a different story.

[Imperator Invictus]

@ Imperator Invictus
It is the same notion, expressed by (state-funded of course) nationalist historians in every little balkan country, that legitimizes in the eyes of the people territorial claims, claims of national ownership of symbols and names and paves the way for the power struggles between the countries of this area, struggles that are profitable only for the upper classes and certainly not for us, common people.

I say all this as a Greek citizen raised to believe, by the educational system, the church and other channels of propaganda, that the Greeks are the direct descendants of Leonidas and Socrates (no matter if most us have not read a single page of ancient literature), that the Turks are butchers because that's their national inclination , that all lands within the boundaries of the Byzantine Empire at the 9th century are enslaved national greek lands (it is beyond question of course that the Byzantine Empire was as greek as say the Athenian Hegemony) and of course that Macedonia was greek from the ancient times and it has remained so and that our Macedonian neighbours have no right to this name, because they are impostors who steal our history etc etc... I believe you will find some parallels to ideas spread in your own country.

In Romania is different, the state founded historians say, for example, that our medieval aristocracy were Slavic or Cuman and in opposition we have the Nationalist historians who are somehow outcasts. At least the governments of Greece, Macedonia, Hungary or Bulgaria have a direction for their citizens even if they indoctrinate them, but my country is really fu__ed up in the last years from corruption, religion, incompetence and bureaucracy, including the educational system, we have no direction and we are sinking.

[Hax]

Wow, I feel attacked here. I think you misunderstood what I said. i wasn't talkin' about me nor anybody else. I was giving an example, showing pretty much what you said : that because of nationalistic beheaviour of people, finding the exact origins of great figures is a tricky matter. now read twice before shouting out loud.

Wow, I wasn't even talking to you.