Combat in the Med II engine

[Julianus]

I understand that if an infantry unit do rout when facing a cavalry charge, they should rout before the impact. Otherwise if they stay steady then it's the cavalry who will be in real trouble if they don't put on the brakes. So i always wonder if the "charge into an infantry unit -- if they don't rout then disengage and reform -- charge again until they rout" practice really happened in history.

[Captain Jazzy]

I just dont want to see my Hellcats owned by freed slaves =(

[Cyclops]

I understand that if an infantry unit do rout when facing a cavalry charge, they should rout before the impact. Otherwise if they stay steady then it's the cavalry who will be in real trouble if they don't put on the brakes. So i always wonder if the "charge into an infantry unit -- if they don't rout then disengage and reform -- charge again until they rout" practice really happened in history.

This is an interesting point, especially the bit about inf routing before impact. I am no expert, my knowledge is purely academic and limited at that. My impression from a few texts eg Face of Battle is units often fell back before contact when charged, refused to charge when ordered etc. so generalship was something like herding cats.

I recall having this problem with units in MTW (the old one) especially with 0 1 or 2 star commanders. If morale was a lot lower then we'd see charges brealk off sooner and defenders rout more often.

This makes for less impressive battles (hmmm the disorganised barbarians ran away again), or at least the impressive ones are less common. Maybe its a touch of historical realism? Real bloodbaths only happening when there are two well-led well-motivated forces, or there's no escape for one side?

In game terms I guess it would favour skirmishers and missile troops over heavies in that if both sides are unwilling to engage then shock loses value.

I suppose it might force players to position generals and "eagle" units more carefully and time attacks more exactly.

I find it frustrating when a flanking unit drops its bundle and flees to the rear but I guess it did happen and in fact it might have happened a lot.

Once again the game mechanics might not handle this so well, with the distortion of the town square and battlefield map edge meaning a rout has massively different values for different situations.

Is there a point in nerfing morale (and maybe speeding morale recovery? if possible?) to model troop trepidation?

[Ichon]

Routing before contact would make many battles almost unplayable or that only elite units would be used by human players since a handful of elite units could wipe up a full stack of low morale/prone to rout AI units. It is an interesting idea for future TW game but in practice for MTW2 probably quite boring. In all TW games I would prefer having units worth much more in manpower terms... so even a routing unit if it makes it alive off the battlefield could form the core of a new unit or contribute some manpower. RTW came closest with units subtracting from the population of the region formed out of but that put the AI at a rather large disadvantage. MTW2 negated unit creation minus to population but that along with minimal bonus due to XP resulted in individual units becoming rather interchangeable. Hopefully in the future something like a max cap per type of unit per region could be done... so losing a unit completely means the manpower pool takes some time to replenish before it is available again. Even better is if that is offset by the ability to recruit more manpower with a tax income/unrest penalty. Various RR/RC submods for some of the most popular MTW2 mods move in this direction but limited by the engine CA built. Ideally the differences between more civilized culture and less civilized could be modeled that way as well. More civilized cultures with higher populations could support more units if willing to tax lower and bear more unrest (partially countered by law/public order structures) while less civlized cultures have a more fragile economy which can support high number of units only for a set time before income penalty is leading the state to go bankrupt... however more men under arms could conversaely lead to higher public order (young trouble makers fighting far away) and allow higher taxes... though perhaps some units being only recruitable for a set duration- 5 seasons or something. Anyway, most of that is probably for another game.

Most battles had blood baths occurring with the rout so that part is historical. Units fighting to the death was more rare but happened in very militatistic cultures and with some elite units even in less militaristic cultures.

Using the current MTW2 system the best results could be not decreasing morale overall but increasing the rate fatigue sets in and also the rate units recover from being tired. With tired and exhausted units much more likely to rout it would encourage rotating units or at least keeping a reserve but that tired units wouldn't be finished for the entire battle. Just need to rest a bit as this would especially help AI when on higher difficulties it often would have routing units rally which might have a chance to rest before getting into battle again. Especially if fatigue rates made a bigger difference in unit speed. I haven't seen very many mods change unit speed noticeably with fatigue and not sure if that is due to narrow band of difference possible to mod or just never been done. The most annoying thing in battles for me besides the AI charging its general into the midst of my best spear unit for a glorious death is when exhausted units sprint away at the same speed as fresh units chasing them.

[fightermedic]

Using the current MTW2 system the best results could be not decreasing morale overall but increasing the rate fatigue sets in and also the rate units recover from being tired. With tired and exhausted units much more likely to rout it would encourage rotating units or at least keeping a reserve but that tired units wouldn't be finished for the entire battle. Just need to rest a bit as this would especially help AI when on higher difficulties it often would have routing units rally which might have a chance to rest before getting into battle again. Especially if fatigue rates made a bigger difference in unit speed. I haven't seen very many mods change unit speed noticeably with fatigue and not sure if that is due to narrow band of difference possible to mod or just never been done. The most annoying thing in battles for me besides the AI charging its general into the midst of my best spear unit for a glorious death is when exhausted units sprint away at the same speed as fresh units chasing them.

i absolutley agree with the fatigue part
but i have that certain fear that this is hardcoded

on a side note i think that the recovery ratio of wounded after battle should be greatly increased
maybe by granting every general a trait that does so

[seienchin]

Hardcoded. The looser always loses every injured man.

[Ichon]

Unless ransomed or whatever EB will call it. Probably enslaved though I'm not sure how they will script that so ransom fee is not subtracted from defeated faction.

How do draws work in MTW2? I've only had a draw one time and don't recall noticing what happened to the wounded casualties.

I thought the system of traits and ancillaries that carried over from RTW and exists in MTW2 works fairly well. Without anicllaries/traits for healing winner only heals 5-25% of losses while with traits etc around 50% can be healed.

BTW- last time I read on the subject I think the Avars are credited with introducing strirrups to western Europe. The Scythians or Samartions are generally credited with the adoption of leather toe loops that evolved into the current stirrups but the adoption and spread of rigid stirrups took less than a couple hundred years probably. Which is actually quite short amount of time when efficiency of communications was as poor as that era.

I've read some arguments that most Roman cavalry used a saddle which had a hand grip that allowed 1 hand on the grip and 2nd hand to hold a weapon while reins could be gripped in teeth or leg pressure used to steer. That sounds awkward to me but I could see the reins simply being dropped shortly before a charge made contact and 1 hand steadying against the shock using one of these hand grips. Sort of like modern western saddles horn but placed on the part of the saddle strap that ran over a horses shoulder on ancient saddles. I've seen pictures of a couple bronze statues and some friezes that apparently show such a handle.

[Cyclops]

Routing before contact would make many battles almost unplayable or that only elite units would be used by human players since a handful of elite units could wipe up a full stack of low morale/prone to rout AI units. ...

That sounds historical to me. I guess you're right that the AI will not handle it.

...increasing the rate fatigue sets in and also the rate units recover from being tired. With tired and exhausted units much more likely to rout it would encourage rotating units or at least keeping a reserve but that tired units wouldn't be finished for the entire battle...

That sounds intriguing.

... The most annoying thing in battles for me ... is when exhausted units sprint away at the same speed as fresh units chasing them.

Yep. I tend to keep back a swift unit for pursuit (either fast skirmisher or light cav) and only allow myself a "full pursuit" (ie not end the battle at the first prompt) if I have one of those in good order, few or no casualties and not tired.

[Ichon]

Yep. I tend to keep back a swift unit for pursuit (either fast skirmisher or light cav) and only allow myself a "full pursuit" (ie not end the battle at the first prompt) if I have one of those in good order, few or no casualties and not tired.

Yes... keeping a cavalry for pursuit is a big help but I haven't yet played a mod where light infantry can run down heavy infantry even when the heavy infantry is exhausted and running up a hill the light infantry might close the distance of 2-3 model ranks in the whole battlemap.

[Cyclops]

Yes... keeping a cavalry for pursuit is a big help but I haven't yet played a mod where light infantry can run down heavy infantry even when the heavy infantry is exhausted and running up a hill the light infantry might close the distance of 2-3 model ranks in the whole battlemap.

Actually I was deviating OT into how I roleplay. What I mean is nothing gets to pursue unless I have one fit "pursuit unit" so FM heavy cavalry doesn't get to mop up a fully routed enemy army unless I kept back some psiloi or whatever.

I hope what you are suggesting about fatigue gradation and degradation is moddable. It was a tangible feature in MTW (I used to shuffle my overall formations oh-so-carefully and really paid attention to generals positioning) so here's hoping it can be done with the M2TW engine.

I love the idea of say barbaric troops roaring forwards and crumpling backwards as they tire and recover, and really being inspired by the proximity of their warchief (and diminished by his absence), contrasting perhaps with the top end elites and proffesionals soldiering on steadily with less reference to whether they can actually see their general.

[antisocialmunky]

I would also like lower unit cohesion so its harder to withdraw undisciplined troops.