Authentic Settlements

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

So I was browsing over at twcenter when I came across this. http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=409073

I know this would be low on the priority list as it seems time consuming but is there any chance that in the future Greek, Roman and various other settlements might be created for EBII? Just because it would take away some of the historical accuracy to see fine Roman legions marching down a medieval town.

[Foot]

We have said consistently that it is our plan to create authentic settlements for our time period. We are creating a total modification after all.

Foot

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

Ok thanks for the reply Foot. Sorry, must have missed where that was said. I did not know that any mods had really started to tackle this yet but what KK has done over at TA:TW certainly shows that some amazing things can be done. I look forward to storming some intimidating Celtic oppida!

[Folgore]

Would it be possible to base the layout of cities on actual historical sites?

[Andy1984]

I believe it is possible, but the amount of modding involved in it is the reason why it won't be done. Of course, if some volunteers arose...

[bobbin]

Would it be possible to base the layout of cities on actual historical sites?

Yes, but it would only apply to one size of city. Either that or you could have just one layout for all sizes but that means your small city would be the same as your huge etc.

Just to make clear by the way, it was Argantonio, wilddog and makanyane who made the breakthroughs, TA:TW is just one of the first big mods to use their tool (with very impressive results).

[Foot]

Would it be possible to base the layout of cities on actual historical sites?

Bobbin is right with this. While we can create specific city plans for specific settlements, these would not be able to grow over time, and so would be completely static. As such, and because of the extra effort that would be required for such a feat, we will not be doing this.

Foot

[Folgore]

But surely there are some cities on the map which are already the largest size (or will be reaching the largest size in a few years) at the start of the game? Rome, Carthage, Alexandria. Those cities all have their own characteristic layouts, which could make for some epic siege battles.

What would be the limitations of custom cities? Can you have rivers running through them like Rome? Can they be on the coast like Carthage? Or flanked by water on two sides, like Alexandria? Or do you need to be able to attack the city from all directions?

At any rate, the amount of effort required is just a matter of time and manpower. ;)

[Ludens]

But surely there are some cities on the map which are already the largest size (or will be reaching the largest size in a few years) at the start of the game? Rome, Carthage, Alexandria.

Err... Alexandria had been founded only half a century before, and IIRC it was yet to become the Ptolemean capital. Rome was already old, but the Roman empire was only beginning to rise so no doubt the town would have been fairly provincial at this point. Of those three, only Carthage was past serious growth.

At any rate, the amount of effort required is just a matter of time and manpower.

You're volunteering?

[Maeran]

Custom battle map castles could have moats, so you could adapt that into a river I suppose. I have been working on learning how to do this, but it is such early days for me that I can only really say that such things can be done. (I can export MTW2 objects and edit them, and I can build 3d models of Greek temples and round houses. Marrying the 2 is my next challenge)

Actually, I'm not certain that actual representations of historical cities would be good from a gaming point of view. The scale is wrong for a start.

[Folgore]

Err... Alexandria had been founded only half a century before, and IIRC it was yet to become the Ptolemean capital. Rome was already old, but the Roman empire was only beginning to rise so no doubt the town would have been fairly provincial at this point. Of those three, only Carthage was past serious growth.

As I understand it, Alexandria grew to be larger than Carthage in little over one generation and to the largest city in the world in just over a century. As for Rome though, you are probably right.

You're volunteering?

It's been a while since I modeled anything. :o

[Ludens]

As I understand it, Alexandria grew to be larger than Carthage in little over one generation and to the largest city in the world in just over a century. As for Rome though, you are probably right.

Wikipedia agrees with you, but I find it hard to credit. Cities like Carthage and Imperial Rome had to import massive amounts of grain and wine (because the water wasn't safe). The infrastructure required for that alone is staggering and given pre-modern logistics would take years to establish. If Alexandria grew to Carthage's size within twenty years, most of it would have been shanty towns.

[Paltmull]

Bobbin is right with this. While we can create specific city plans for specific settlements, these would not be able to grow over time, and so would be completely static. As such, and because of the extra effort that would be required for such a feat, we will not be doing this.

Foot

What about specific city plans for custom/historical battles?

[bobbin]

Way too much work for a relatively small part of the game, you are welcome to have a go yourself though.

[Paltmull]

That's what I thought. :P

[Ichon]

But Alexandria is sitting by a vast river delta... vs Carthage especially and Rome which had centuries to develop the infrastructure to import from overseas. A river barge is much easier to build and control than sea going vessels. Besides- Carthage was never hugely populated, at least compared to some other ancient cities so 1 generation seems reasonanble. For Alexandria to surpass Rome in 20 years would be most questionable but not neceessarily in 100 years.

[moonburn]

But Alexandria is sitting by a vast river delta... vs Carthage especially and Rome which had centuries to develop the infrastructure to import from overseas. A river barge is much easier to build and control than sea going vessels. Besides- Carthage was never hugely populated, at least compared to some other ancient cities so 1 generation seems reasonanble. For Alexandria to surpass Rome in 20 years would be most questionable but not neceessarily in 100 years.

600.000 people is not hugely populated ? even today 99% of city´s don´t have that big a number (and no metropolitan areas don´t count as 1 single city)

they where the 1st one´s to buildupwards because they had space problems :| (you know 6 store high buildings)

[Ludens]

But Alexandria is sitting by a vast river delta... vs Carthage especially and Rome which had centuries to develop the infrastructure to import from overseas. A river barge is much easier to build and control than sea going vessels.

True, but shipping is not the limiting factor. Ships will turn up automatically when there are trade opportunities. The limitation are the docks, storages and distribution networks. Are there sources for Alexandria's rapid growth? The cited reference in the Wikipedia article seems to be about culture rather than demographics.

That said: I just realized one of my arguments against the rapid growth of Alexandria is false. A city that big needs a massive import of grain. Because the Classical world did not have a food surplus, I reasoned this meant that the Ptolemids were paying for the grain, and that someone else was going short. However, Egypt did have a major grain surplus (they were one of the biggest exporters) so they could afford it.

[Ichon]

True, but shipping is not the limiting factor. Ships will turn up automatically when there are trade opportunities. The limitation are the docks, storages and distribution networks. Are there sources for Alexandria's rapid growth? The cited reference in the Wikipedia article seems to be about culture rather than demographics.

That said: I just realized one of my arguments against the rapid growth of Alexandria is false. A city that big needs a massive import of grain. Because the Classical world did not have a food surplus, I reasoned this meant that the Ptolemids were paying for the grain, and that someone else was going short. However, Egypt did have a major grain surplus (they were one of the biggest exporters) so they could afford it.

I mention the river and delta because it is much easier to ship from there than the harbors and docks required for ocean going ships, also it is not as regulated by season. Nile has more than 2 growing seasons and partially why they had a surplus. I don't know if the limit on getting food would be a handicap much at all. More would be simply building the necessary buildings and sewage for that many people in short time. I guess they could just dump everything into the delta though.

600.000 people is not hugely populated ? even today 99% of city´s don´t have that big a number (and no metropolitan areas don´t count as 1 single city)

they where the 1st one´s to buildupwards because they had space problems :| (you know 6 store high buildings)

600.000? That is high estimate... it was more like 1/2 that during Punic wars. Revival under Roman rule later when entire population everywhere grew was maybe close to 500,00.

[moonburn]

there´s a big diference beteween what poenii considered citizens and no citizens that is by most works i´ve studied a conservative estimate but ofc only 20% of those 600.000 had poeni blood in them according to some recent genetic surveys of tunisia and even then there where the lybi phoenicians but 600.000 people at it´s zenith yes

africa was highly productive in food it had large shipyard and docks and many storage places for vast amounts of food (wich then again everyone knows since even after the fall of the empire carthage still scared the crap out of the romans so they decided to start the 3rd punic war against a weaker state)

im not sure on the sources for this but it seems the carthies where paying large sums to try and steal land from the sea because of their chronical lack of room

so yes 600.000 people estimates and high degree of engineering works to enable them to have that many people (skycrapers of the time the market quater the dockyards of carthage)

engineering an empire is a good (as far as history chanel can go ...) program/series where you can gather a litle bit more information about carthage

[Tellos Athenaios]

they where the 1st one´s to build upwards because they had space problems

If you refer to the cause, I would not know; if you refer them doing that then you're definitely wrong about the “1st one's” bit.

[fightermedic]

now i'm curious
which cultural group was the first one then?

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

A biblical story tells of a Jewish spy who infiltrates a walled town by moving from the wall to a tall "apartment" of a sympathizer by means of a rope or something, can't remember the exact details. I'm not sure on how high walls were in Old Testament Judea and Canaa but I would assume that clearly the living quarters were cramped by the walls so they were built upwards instead.

[bobbin]

now i'm curious
which cultural group was the first one then?

I don't think anyone knows but multistorey buildings have been around almost as long as cities have. They were present in Mesoptamia, the Indus valley and China thousands of years before Carthage was even founded.

[moonburn]

even the oldest setlement know çatak huyuk in turkey there where a few and their entrance as by the roof but then again i meant 6 store buildings not just 2 store high buildings (actually the 1st i´ve heard was in a poeni setlement in sicily not even in carthage but i can assume the building constructions where similar )

brave sir robin i think thats the story about jericho and the "spy" moved on to the house of a jew already living inside the walled city

the bible speaks of a 6 meter high wall (or 9 can´t recall atm) but then again it might be extremly exagerated but thats just a personal opinion

resume: 6 story high buildings carthage had
according to what i read from diferent authors it mantained a 600.000 population and towards the ends it was able to recruit a 80.000 population militia for it´s defence before the final fall at the end of the 3rd punic war (i hate this definition it wasn´t a true war the carthies never had a chance even if they had won and had maintaned their freedom they would only have been invaded and sieged again without much of a chance to strike back)

[Greenlizard0.]

As I understand it, Alexandria grew to be larger than Carthage in little over one generation and to the largest city in the world in just over a century. As for Rome though, you are probably right.

Well, if you search for this book in Google Books (or Google Scholar): Settlements of the Ptolemies: city foundations and new settlement in the Hellenistic world

Then at page 96 you will find a estimated population of Alexandria in mid-third century BC: 25000-75000 inhabitants (If I understood the page correctly)

Not exactly the largest city, I think.

[bobbin]

even the oldest setlement know çatak huyuk in turkey there where a few and their entrance as by the roof but then again i meant 6 store buildings not just 2 store high buildings (actually the 1st i´ve heard was in a poeni setlement in sicily not even in carthage but i can assume the building constructions where similar )

Well thats being a bit overly specific, you said they were the first ones to build upwards. Even the things like the Nuraghe on Sardinia were of that size and thats not taking into account things like temples and palaces.

[Tanit]

Indeed, many of the Near Eastern Temples and Palaces were truly wonders to behold. I can't recall specific figures off the top of my head, but I have seen interpretive drawings and archaeological reports and these things were truly massive, as big as the Colosseum and bigger.

[moonburn]

tanit you mean the babylonian zigurats ? i´ve seen a few picture and image depictions and they always remind of the aztec piramids :\

and yes bobbin i might have exagerated a litle bit but normally those constructions didn´t had the social meaning of building flats purelly for habitacional purposes before the charties 2 store high buildings during the carthies 6 store high buildings and after the carthies only a few places in rome with such buildings and then again not for habitation (according to what i read but ofc i don´t claim to know everything) since those roman 6 store high buildings where a kind of modern shopping centers with each store a kind of product

[bobbin]

tanit you mean the babylonian zigurats ? i´ve seen a few picture and image depictions and they always remind of the aztec piramids :\

That would be one type of the buildings he was talking about, one of many.

and yes bobbin i might have exagerated a litle bit but normally those constructions didn´t had the social meaning of building flats purelly for habitacional purposes before the charties 2 store high buildings during the carthies 6 store high buildings and after the carthies only a few places in rome with such buildings and then again not for habitation (according to what i read but ofc i don´t claim to know everything) since those roman 6 store high buildings where a kind of modern shopping centers with each store a kind of product.

I think it is generally accepted that the Nuraghe were houses, albeit fortified ones. We also know that ancient egyptians in the 2nd millenium BC had 3 storey high town houses and were perfectly capable of building bigger.
Imperial Rome had plenty of residential buildings of a similar and sometimes larger size btw, they were called Insulae.

If your going to make such sweeping statements like "only 2 storeys before" or "no 6 storey Roman houses after" you should provide some evidence to back it up.