Act of Settlement under threat

[Rhyfelwyr]

Linky

This is part of Cleggeron's wider programme of removing old laws that restrict civil liberties, with the proposal to repeal the Act of Settlement of 1701 being dubbed the 'Freedom Bill'.

Some interesting points...

"Angus MacNeil, the SNP MP for the Western Isles, has called for a mass online vote for a change in the law, which he denounced as “state sectarianism”, ahead of the Pope’s visit."

This confirms what I have always said about the overwhelming influence of Catholics and liberal Protestants amongst Scottish nationalists. Nobody ever believes me but things like this happen time and time again, no surprise really when the earliest Scottish nationalists had such strong links with Sinn Fein and were originally republican in their outlook.

And I predict the Pope will kiss the ground when he enters Scotland, which is of course his symbol of blessing for an independent nation. I will put money on it, it sounds conspiratorial, but the Vatican really does want to break up the Union.

Anyway, IMO this plan to repeal the Act of Settlement is completely illegal, since it is restated as part of the Treaty of Union, which is in turn the foundational document of the United Kingdom. The usual appeal to discrimination doesn't work in this case since the very purpose of the monarchy is that it is outwith the democratic system, it's about birthright not equal opportunity.

As for why Catholics speficially should not be king, I think the fact that they owe allegiance to another temporal power is good enough grounds.

We could have a Catholic monarch soon if this goes ahead, look at Camilla, she married a Catholic and all her children are Catholic, she is high-church Anglican and they could even split to Rome anyway.

Thoughts?

[tibilicus]

Seems kind of irrelevant in this day and age but I'm not going to miss a golden opportunity to bash the SNP. Basically, my view is that the SNP are a worthless political party. There soul aim, to break up the union, with Alex Salmond seeing himself as some sort of modern day Robert De Bruce is pathetic. Not only because I'm certain that at this point in time, the Scottish people would reject any referendum, but also because it's a fundamentally bad idea. I don't doubt that the SNP will try and shove the independence drivel down the throats of the Scottish people in the future though as it seems they like to wait for favourable economic situations and general good times so they can take credit for the rise of modern Scotland and capitalise on any feel good factor.

Now, the idea of Scottish independence, an awful idea. For over 300 years the Union has brought prosperity to both Scots and Englishmen. Any history book will tell you that before the Union, the Scots were failing to get in the game of early economic globalization and that various ventures in the Americas had mostly resulted in failure. Likewise, the English needed more "planters" for the colonies. Some people like to talk about the separate Scottish identity but the truth is, there is an equal English identity. Both however are dwarfed by a greater British identity. The union is not just part of our history, it represents the bond between two peoples previously separated by war, who joined to form the mightiest entity the world had ever seen and who should now face the modern age together.

The continuous attack on the union by the SNP and other separatists appal me and I personally will renounce any attempt to break up the Untied Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

[Beskar]

I don't particularly care. I will be happy with a "British Constitution" which invalidates all previous legal documents from the dark ages and after.

Anything important can be included in it, and for non-constitutional matters, have the necessary documents updates and in-line with the proposed constitution.

If it gets rid of the Monarchy, it would be an even bigger plus.

[Furunculus]

I don't particularly care. I will be happy with a "British Constitution" which invalidates all previous legal documents from the dark ages and after.

lots of countries has shiny constitutional documents expressing all kinds of happy and nice sentiments, but many of them still periodically try to butcher each other in the most spectactular fashion, this is largely because their political sentiment is nothing more than words, with no deep association with their shared social and cultural history.

I for one would be deeply sad to see the historical roots of our 1300 year old demand for representative governance thrown out the window:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witenagemot

or for that matter the deep historical understanding of the rights and duties of man stemming from 800 year old legal contract:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magna_Carta

or its 400 year old improvement:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petition_of_Right

or the 320 year old tradition of the supremacy of parliament in the form of constitutional monarchy:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_of_Rights_1689

Without that link a constitution is nothing more than words on paper, and there are reasons in addition to geography that are cause for the joyous fact of our unparalleled social stability!

[Beskar]

lots of countries has shiny constitutional documents expressing all kinds of happy and nice sentiments, but many of them still periodically try to butcher each other in the most spectactular fashion, this is largely because their political sentiment is nothing more than words, with no deep association with their shared social and cultural history.

I for one would be deeply sad to see the historical roots of our 1300 year old demand for representative governance thrown out the window:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witenagemot

I don't mean thrown out the window, put them in a museum (if they already were not). I have an appreciation for our historical roots, but somethings it is good to simply clear out the system, so it is all new, sparkly, etc. For example, I would love to clear it all out, do a Constitution with a bunch of associated Bills on related issues that need to be covered and make Parliament there only to make decisions and not constantly draft new laws when they will not be needed.

Perhaps because a need for reform and revolution of the system in place, it is drives me crazy. Like the bunch of aspects which were 'half-done' or simply ill-thought out (like our policy on immigration) or the current state of devolution.

A head of state should not be picked on religous grounds fullstop Furunculus it is the very essence of discrimination and should be scrapped.

By the way it is not bollix some people take this stuff real serious and as a result they have as it were toxified the political discourse in my country.

I have no problem with Act of Settlement being replaced, as I already expressed. Though I thought of a really interesting idea, which I bet Furunculus would like as well. Change it so it says "The President/Monarchy shall never be a subject of a greater power".

Not only would it stop those who don't renounce the pope (it wouldn't be based on religion anymore), but also, Furunculus will not be scared of some EU superstate.

[gaelic cowboy]

I have no problem with Act of Settlement being replaced, as I already expressed. Though I thought of a really interesting idea, which I bet Furunculus would like as well. Change it so it says "The President/Monarchy shall never be a subject of a greater power".

Not only would it stop those who don't renounce the pope (it wouldn't be based on religion anymore), but also, Furunculus will not be scared of some EU superstate.

What do you mean renounce the Pope Beskar??????? I am intrigued

[Rhyfelwyr]

Though I thought of a really interesting idea, which I bet Furunculus would like as well. Change it so it says "The President/Monarchy shall never be a subject of a greater power".

That does sound like a very good idea actually.

If the Pope was just a spiritual leader it wouldn't matter (two kingdoms and all that), but since he is head of a sovereign state I would be very uncomfortable with my own soveriegn owing him any allegiance, just imagine if a monarch did the same thing with an American President, nobody would argue that would be unacceptable.

The main reason I oppose the Act of Settlement is the fact it is a deadly serious piece of toxic legislation that has caused much suffering in my own country.

Even today it is a divisive and dangerous piece of faith based legalism which WILL cause more suffering especially in Northern Ireland in the future of that there is no doubt.

I'm not sure, some of the more hardcore loyalist people I know are pretty indifferent towards the crown. In the past these types used to be fairly conservative and supported the monarchy and the tradition surrounding it, but now they're all radical and into the far-right etc.

I just can't envision people shooting each other in the name of different monarchs anymore. For King Charles!... nah, can't see it. tbh the whole loyalist cause is too distant from the monarchy and indeed the rest of Britain these days.

[Furunculus]

I don't mean thrown out the window, put them in a museum (if they already were not). I have an appreciation for our historical roots, but somethings it is good to simply clear out the system, so it is all new, sparkly, etc. For example, I would love to clear it all out, do a Constitution with a bunch of associated Bills on related issues that need to be covered and make Parliament there only to make decisions and not constantly draft new laws when they will not be needed.

I have no problem with Act of Settlement being replaced, as I already expressed. Though I thought of a really interesting idea, which I bet Furunculus would like as well. Change it so it says "The President/Monarchy shall never be a subject of a greater power".
Not only would it stop those who don't renounce the pope (it wouldn't be based on religion anymore), but also, Furunculus will not be scared of some EU superstate.

I'm fine with change as long as it respects what came before, and maintains that heritable link, i just doubt that an in the era of legalistic moralising we would come up with something as succinct, sympathetic, brief, understandable, and appreciated as the US constiution. it would end up like the EU constitution; a complete wheel-barrow full of meaningless bollox which no cares about or is invested in the success of.

absolutely great idea Beskar, most awesome idea that i'm aware of you uttering (and you have many good ideas), because i don't really care about the CoE, and I don't believe Charles wants to be head of the CoE either, and as long as "Monarchy shall never be a subject of a greater power" is preserved and sovereignty maintained i will be happy (especially if we get a parliamentary sovereignty act too). The monarchy has always evolved to meet the expectations of the people, its why we still have one rather then butchering them at some time in the distant past, the last time was George V when he evolved the monarchy into a family role model and the honours system away from aristocracy and towards voluntary excellence, Charles has every intention of evolving the monarchy too.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Now, the idea of Scottish independence, an awful idea. For over 300 years the Union has brought prosperity to both Scots and Englishmen. Any history book will tell you that before the Union, the Scots were failing to get in the game of early economic globalization and that various ventures in the Americas had mostly resulted in failure. Likewise, the English needed more "planters" for the colonies. Some people like to talk about the separate Scottish identity but the truth is, there is an equal English identity. Both however are dwarfed by a greater British identity. The union is not just part of our history, it represents the bond between two peoples previously separated by war, who joined to form the mightiest entity the world had ever seen and who should now face the modern age together.

Yes! The nationalist drivel is based on the romanticised rantings of some 19th century noblemen who liked to go to high-class parties in London and show off how 'Scottish' they were, they basically invented a new identity for themselves.

This whole image we are spoonfed of Scotland being oppressed by England is complete garbage. It was Scots who were the first to propose Union with England, with a specifically religious union in the 1643 Solemn League and Covenant, and then a much fuller political union in the 1648 Engagement they signed with Charles II. Scottish tracts of that time refer to themselves and England as Britain's "Israel and Judah", which were of course one people in the Biblical reference, who were meant to be united according to prophecy. Just decades after the Union all Scots and English identified as British.

As for this rise in nationalism, I blame immigrants. The 19th century Irish immigrants to be specific, they make up around 20% of the population and are disproportionately involved in politics, so they have really changed the nature of national identity here. People like myself that call themselves British are often told to go home to England.

[InsaneApache]

It matters not a jot. We're all under the fascist jackboot of the EU anyway. They are your true Lords and Masters. Get used to it.

[gaelic cowboy]

Linky

This is part of Cleggeron's wider programme of removing old laws that restrict civil liberties, with the proposal to repeal the Act of Settlement of 1701 being dubbed the 'Freedom Bill'.

Some interesting points...

"Angus MacNeil, the SNP MP for the Western Isles, has called for a mass online vote for a change in the law, which he denounced as “state sectarianism”, ahead of the Pope’s visit."

This confirms what I have always said about the overwhelming influence of Catholics and liberal Protestants amongst Scottish nationalists. Nobody ever believes me but things like this happen time and time again, no surprise really when the earliest Scottish nationalists had such strong links with Sinn Fein and were originally republican in their outlook.

And I predict the Pope will kiss the ground when he enters Scotland, which is of course his symbol of blessing for an independent nation. I will put money on it, it sounds conspiratorial, but the Vatican really does want to break up the Union.

Anyway, IMO this plan to repeal the Act of Settlement is completely illegal, since it is restated as part of the Treaty of Union, which is in turn the foundational document of the United Kingdom. The usual appeal to discrimination doesn't work in this case since the very purpose of the monarchy is that it is outwith the democratic system, it's about birthright not equal opportunity.

As for why Catholics speficially should not be king, I think the fact that they owe allegiance to another temporal power is good enough grounds.

We could have a Catholic monarch soon if this goes ahead, look at Camilla, she married a Catholic and all her children are Catholic, she is high-church Anglican and they could even split to Rome anyway.

Thoughts?

So what get over it

[Rhyfelwyr]

So what get over it

If I am made a stranger in my own country I won't just "get over it", in fact it's not even the Catholic monarch bit that annoys me most, it's the fact that these nationalists are once again changing everything this country means, this time by pushing legislation which is clearly illegal according to the very document that founded the state.

IMO all Scottish nationalists should "go home" as they say to me, go home to Ireland where their identity come from, bye bye at Stranraer... but for some reason if I said that it would be racist, but the reverse isn't true when they say it to me, I guess I can thank the elites of civil society (nationalist stronghold) for that...

[gaelic cowboy]

If I am made a stranger in my own country I won't just "get over it", in fact it's not even the Catholic monarch bit that annoys me most, it's the fact that these nationalists are once again changing everything this country means, this time by pushing legislation which is clearly illegal according to the very document that founded the state.

IMO all Scottish nationalists should "go home" as they say to me, go home to Ireland where their identity come from, bye bye at Stranraer... but for some reason if I said that it would be racist, but the reverse isn't true when they say it to me, I guess I can thank the elites of civil society (nationalist stronghold) for that...

Unbelievable where do you come up with this

[Rhyfelwyr]

Unbelievable where do you come up with this

It's just reality, I know people find it shocking but they just need to get over themselves and the liberal consensus.

Really what have I said that is wrong? Did or did not the early Scottish nationalist get their inspiration from Irish republicans? Does or does not the SNP get disproportionate support in Catholic (built on Irish immigration) areas? Do or do not the socialist parties going back to the early Catholic dominated ILP oppose the Union and support a united Ireland as well? Did or did not the Pope kiss the ground in his 1982 visit to Scotland, showing Vatican support for an independent Scottish state and breaking up the Union?

You know the answers, I know it can be shocking at first but look past the taboos, it's liberating!

[gaelic cowboy]

Interesting so the reverse would be a person can come to Ireland and claim British heritage for himself and through this distort the politics over here however but it's not allowed back in the homeplace.

hmm very interesting indeed

Did or did not the Pope kiss the ground in his 1982 visit to Scotland, showing Vatican support for an independent Scottish state and breaking up the Union?

If Benedict manages to kiss the ground at 83 he should get a round of appaluse.

It is precisely this kind of silly rubbish about conspiracies and the like that make the rest of UK laugh at places like Scotland and Northern Ireland.

Me I am gonna stay in the 21st century it's way cooler here there is DVD's and computer games with cool graphics, oven chips and the wonder of wonders the Internet.

[Furunculus]

If I am made a stranger in my own country I won't just "get over it", in fact it's not even the Catholic monarch bit that annoys me most, it's the fact that these nationalists are once again changing everything this country means, this time by pushing legislation which is clearly illegal according to the very document that founded the state.

IMO all Scottish nationalists should "go home" as they say to me, go home to Ireland where their identity come from, bye bye at Stranraer... but for some reason if I said that it would be racist, but the reverse isn't true when they say it to me, I guess I can thank the elites of civil society (nationalist stronghold) for that...

hear hear!

the idea that the act of settlement should be abolished on the grounds of equality and discrimination is also bollox, you cannot reasonably describe as discrimination that will effect the population a policy that prevents one person from being from only one religion.

[gaelic cowboy]

the idea that the act of settlement should be abolished on the grounds of equality and discrimination is also bollox, you cannot reasonably describe as discrimination that will effect the population a policy that prevents one person from being from only one religion.

A head of state should not be picked on religous grounds fullstop Furunculus it is the very essence of discrimination and should be scrapped.

By the way it is not bollix some people take this stuff real serious and they have as it were toxified the political discourse in my country.

[Ronin]

As for why Catholics speficially should not be king, I think the fact that they owe allegiance to another temporal power is good enough grounds.

would the current royal family also be removed since they may have allegiances to Germany?

not that I care....just funny to point it out.