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Thread: Welcome to the club, Ireland

  1. #1
    Nobody expects the Senior Member Lemur's Avatar
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    Thumbs up Welcome to the club, Ireland

    Residents of the Emerald Isle have gained a remarkably American-style right:

    Irish homeowners can now legally use guns to defend themselves if their homes are attacked under new legislation.

    The new home defense bill has moved the balance of rights back to the house owner if his home is broken into "where it should always have been", say top Irish police.

    The police association of superintendents and inspectors, the AGSI, stated that “the current situation, which legally demands a house owner retreat from an intruder, was intolerable".

    Indeed. The act of protecting yourself should not be criminalized.
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    Voluntary Suspension Voluntary Suspension Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Welcome to the club, Ireland

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemur View Post
    Residents of the Emerald Isle have gained a remarkably American-style right:

    Irish homeowners can now legally use guns to defend themselves if their homes are attacked under new legislation.

    The new home defense bill has moved the balance of rights back to the house owner if his home is broken into "where it should always have been", say top Irish police.

    The police association of superintendents and inspectors, the AGSI, stated that “the current situation, which legally demands a house owner retreat from an intruder, was intolerable".

    Indeed. The act of protecting yourself should not be criminalized.
    I think you'll find this probably means the same thing as the UK though, you can only blow their heads off if they aren't running away from you.
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    Member Centurion1's Avatar
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    Default Re: Welcome to the club, Ireland

    Absolutely the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. Some creeper steps on my lawn and he doesn't get off when asked to I'm going to shoot his ***.

    Mind you I uh wouldn't aim to kill.

  4. #4
    Needs more flowers Moderator drone's Avatar
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    Default Re: Welcome to the club, Ireland

    Quote Originally Posted by Centurion1 View Post
    Mind you I uh wouldn't aim to kill.
    That would be a mistake.

    1) If you are going to fire a weapon in anger, go for center mass. Anything else is just Hollywood and will likely get you killed.
    2) If you wound, you are likely to get sued. Always put one in the brain. Always. And make sure the body is in the house when the police show up.
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    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Welcome to the club, Ireland

    Good for them, more to follow I hope. If I catch a burglar he has more rights than me, completely whack. Judges have become lenient but defending yourself can still get you into trouble as violence weighs heavier than burglary.

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    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: Welcome to the club, Ireland

    I do not support the death penalty for any crime, but I definitely do not support the death penalty for a simple burglary.
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

  7. #7
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Welcome to the club, Ireland

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore View Post
    I do not support the death penalty for any crime, but I definitely do not support the death penalty for a simple burglary.
    Not a death sentence just a risk of the trade. You are unlikely to kill someone with a panic shot anyway. In our current situation it's better to finish the job and get some plastic sheets and a saw.
    Last edited by Fragony; 07-21-2010 at 08:38.

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    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: Welcome to the club, Ireland

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    Not a death sentence just a risk of the trade. You are unlikely to kill someone with a panic shot anyway. In our current situation it's better to finish the job and get some plastic sheets and a saw.
    If you kill someone because he was robbing your house, off course you punished him with the death penalty for the crime of robbing a house, there's no other way to explain that.

    We already have more than enough rights to protect lives, I do not want a law that allows anyone to sentence people to death at their own whim. There's a reason why we have things like police officers, judges and so on, I would like to keep it that way.
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

  9. #9
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Welcome to the club, Ireland

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore View Post
    If you kill someone because he was robbing your house, off course you punished him with the death penalty for the crime of robbing a house, there's no other way to explain that.

    We already have more than enough rights to protect lives, I do not want a law that allows anyone to sentence people to death at their own whim. There's a reason why we have things like police officers, judges and so on, I would like to keep it that way.
    Criminals have them. If you are allowed to shoot there is enough time to call an ambulance, if you aren't yet you had to and said criminal is bleeding to death, would you still call 112? Happy jailtime, bye life bye career

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    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: Welcome to the club, Ireland

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    Criminals have them. If you are allowed to shoot there is enough time to call an ambulance, if you aren't yet you had to and said criminal is bleeding to death, would you still call 112? Happy jailtime, bye life bye career
    First off, criminals don't have guns. Junkies break into your home usually armed with massive confusion, at best a needle.

    Secondly, if your life is in danger, you already have the right to take the steps necessary to preserve life. What laws like this does, is that it allows you to take those same steps not just to protect life, but to protect your TV as well. And I do not value a TV as high as a human life, HD or not. Not even my iPad....
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

  11. #11
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Welcome to the club, Ireland

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore View Post
    First off, criminals don't have guns. Junkies break into your home usually armed with massive confusion, at best a needle.

    Secondly, if your life is in danger, you already have the right to take the steps necessary to preserve life. What laws like this does, is that it allows you to take those same steps not just to protect life, but to protect your TV as well. And I do not value a TV as high as a human life, HD or not. Not even my iPad....
    Doesn't have to be a gun, let's say you had to stab or bludgeon and if you don't call an ambulance he's screwed. If you do, you are screwed as you end up completely at the mercy of a judge.

    If you have a gun and you are allowed to shoot pointing should be enough and you can calmly call the police. If it isn't enough because he's crazy on drugs or has a gun of himself, would you rather have a baton? Add to that wife plus kids.

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    Insomniac and tired of it Senior Member Slyspy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Welcome to the club, Ireland

    It isn't a carte blanche to shoot people dead. It allows reasonable force to be used, including lethal force if deemed appropriate by the courts. The idea being that if you injure or kill the intruder your actions will still see you up in court, where the powers that be will decide whether or not your actions were reasonable. If you shoot dead an unarmed man for stealing your TV then the state will take your liberty.

    Of course this may mean that more petty thieves go about their business armed, and thus the level of force used by all parties increases leading to more frequent serious incidents.
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    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: Welcome to the club, Ireland

    Blowing away junkies is merely tidying up the gene pool.

    There might be a slight decrease in other burglaries as the risk vs gain balance alters. Those that do will expect to meet armed resistance, and will therefore need to be armed and shoot when challenged lest they are.

    Personally I think that passive defences should be allowed. No one wants barbed wire strung over their property, but I'm sure if it were allowed more acceptable deterrents would be thought up.

    My ex-girlfriend's father was ex-SAS. There the "rule" was - "if you need to fire your gun, make sure they're dead. Then there's only one narrative of events."

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    Ranting madman of the .org Senior Member Fly Shoot Champion, Helicopter Champion, Pedestrian Killer Champion, Sharpshooter Champion, NFS Underground Champion Rhyfelwyr's Avatar
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    Default Re: Welcome to the club, Ireland

    Burglars lose their rights when they are in the process of taking someone elses.



    Well done the Irish!

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  15. #15
    Near East TW Mod Leader Member Cute Wolf's Avatar
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    Default Re: Welcome to the club, Ireland

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore View Post
    If you kill someone because he was robbing your house, off course you punished him with the death penalty for the crime of robbing a house, there's no other way to explain that.

    We already have more than enough rights to protect lives, I do not want a law that allows anyone to sentence people to death at their own whim. There's a reason why we have things like police officers, judges and so on, I would like to keep it that way.
    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore View Post
    First off, criminals don't have guns. Junkies break into your home usually armed with massive confusion, at best a needle.

    Secondly, if your life is in danger, you already have the right to take the steps necessary to preserve life. What laws like this does, is that it allows you to take those same steps not just to protect life, but to protect your TV as well. And I do not value a TV as high as a human life, HD or not. Not even my iPad....
    I'm sure you never meet with burglars that carrying axes or sickles then, and those who you tought to be unarmed, actually have some sort of knive that could be plugged to your heart when he was "panic" (or want to kill you to cover his tracks)... better safe than sorry...

    oh yeah, and if you have experience meet with some burglars or any criminals that enter your home, you can't use force of mere persuassion against him, unless he wasn't a criminal at all...

    Quote Originally Posted by Slyspy View Post
    It isn't a carte blanche to shoot people dead. It allows reasonable force to be used, including lethal force if deemed appropriate by the courts. The idea being that if you injure or kill the intruder your actions will still see you up in court, where the powers that be will decide whether or not your actions were reasonable. If you shoot dead an unarmed man for stealing your TV then the state will take your liberty.

    Of course this may mean that more petty thieves go about their business armed, and thus the level of force used by all parties increases leading to more frequent serious incidents.
    That's right, I'm actually a bit confused when I see some westerners who said they hold "human rights" highly, try to protect the criminal at the expense of the victim... here, if a burglar broke into our house, we could not only shoot him to stop him, but also delibrately kill him, and you are innocent in the eyes of the law... think of what those criminals could do to your family then, and you'll know that they deserve death.

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    Part-Time Polemic Senior Member ICantSpellDawg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Welcome to the club, Ireland

    "I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6". Center mass, all the way. Don't touch the body even if they are outside. Make a racket so that they turn toward you right before you fire.

    Use every right that you have at your disposal to do justice, nobody else will on your behalf. If you kill that robber according to the law, you may have saved someone elses life down the line who would have been broken into by the perp and might not be so lucky.

    Our "crimal justice" system is for those who escaped justice.
    Last edited by ICantSpellDawg; 07-21-2010 at 17:01.
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    Senior Member Senior Member Ser Clegane's Avatar
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    Default Re: Welcome to the club, Ireland

    Quote Originally Posted by TuffStuffMcGruff View Post
    If you kill that robber according to the law, you may have saved someone elses life down the line who would have been broken into by the perp and might not be so lucky.
    I actually think that I should also be allowed to shoot on sight people who
    - violate speed limits
    - pass a red light
    - use their mobile phone while driving
    Might save somebody else's life down the line who might die in a car crash caused by one of those people...

    (just to be on the save side: Yes - this is supposed to be sarcasm)
    Last edited by Ser Clegane; 07-21-2010 at 17:09.

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    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: Welcome to the club, Ireland

    Quote Originally Posted by rory_20_uk View Post
    Blowing away junkies is merely tidying up the gene pool.
    Funny - I'd say the same about soldiers, but that would give me warning points...
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

  19. #19
    Enlightened Despot Member Vladimir's Avatar
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    Default Re: Welcome to the club, Ireland

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore View Post
    Funny - I'd say the same about soldiers, but that would give me warning points...
    So, any idea where to start?


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  20. #20
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Welcome to the club, Ireland

    Quote Originally Posted by Vladimir View Post
    So, any idea where to start?
    Not that odd from a pacifist point of view, not that I agree with it but I see no inconsistancy's.

  21. #21
    Senior Member Senior Member naut's Avatar
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    Default Re: Welcome to the club, Ireland

    Quote Originally Posted by Centurion1 View Post
    Mind you I uh wouldn't aim to kill.
    Aiming in a critical situation with a handgun is incredibly difficult:

    "The police officer's potential for hitting his adversary during armed confrontation has increased over the years and stands at slightly over 25% of the rounds fired. An assailant's skill was 11% in 1979...

    In 1992 the overall police hit potential was 17%. Where distances could be determined, the hit percentages at distances under 15 yards were:

    Less than 3 yards ..... 28%
    3 yards to 7 yards .... 11%
    7 yards to 15 yards . 4.2%


    It has been assumed that if a man can hit a target at 50 yards he can certainly do the same at three feet. That assumption is not borne out by the reports.

    An attempt was made to relate an officer's ability to strike a target in a combat situation to his range qualification scores. After making over 200 such comparisons, no firm conclusion was reached. "
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  22. #22
    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: Welcome to the club, Ireland

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    Not that odd from a pacifist point of view, not that I agree with it but I see no inconsistancy's.
    Well a lot of the junkies are former soldiers....

    Along with other no-good spoiled brats like incest and rape victims, people with PTSD, people who were given too much painkillers by their doctor, people with chronic diseases, etc...

    Bunch of low-lives all of them. 9-year olds with the nerve to walk around in skimpy outfits and arouse daddy's magic stick should be shot on sight, I fully agree with Rory on that one.
    Last edited by HoreTore; 07-21-2010 at 20:45.
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

  23. #23
    Enlightened Despot Member Vladimir's Avatar
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    Default Re: Welcome to the club, Ireland

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore View Post
    Well a lot of the junkies are former soldiers....

    Along with other no-good spoiled brats like incest and rape victims, people with PTSD, people who were given too much painkillers by their doctor, people with chronic diseases, etc...

    Bunch of low-lives all of them. 9-year olds with the nerve to walk around in skimpy outfits and arouse daddy's magic stick should be shot on sight, I fully agree with Rory on that one.
    I meant, perhaps, that you could lead by example and martyr yourself for your cause.


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  24. #24
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Welcome to the club, Ireland

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore View Post
    Well a lot of the junkies are former soldiers....

    Along with other no-good spoiled brats like incest and rape victims, people with PTSD, people who were given too much painkillers by their doctor, people with chronic diseases, etc...

    Bunch of low-lives all of them. 9-year olds with the nerve to walk around in skimpy outfits and arouse daddy's magic stick should be shot on sight, I fully agree with Rory on that one.
    Has little to do with this besides a territorium thingie

  25. #25
    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: Welcome to the club, Ireland

    Quote Originally Posted by Vladimir View Post
    I meant, perhaps, that you could lead by example and martyr yourself for your cause.
    Uhm..... Last I checked, I was neither a soldier nor a junkie...

    I haven't heard anyone say that math teachers should be killed, so I think I'm okay.
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

  26. #26
    Senior Member Senior Member Ser Clegane's Avatar
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    Default Re: Welcome to the club, Ireland

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore View Post
    Funny - I'd say the same about soldiers, but that would give me warning points...
    And the post you are quoting is not really appropriate either.

    While I respect the range of views that people might have on the extent of the right of self defense I would appreciate if these views would be expressed without indulging in the inappropraite juvenile killing fantasies that this kind of topic seems to regularly evoke.

    Thanks


  27. #27
    Enlightened Despot Member Vladimir's Avatar
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    Default Re: Welcome to the club, Ireland

    Edit: Must...stop...feeding...trolls...


    Reinvent the British and you get a global finance center, edible food and better service. Reinvent the French and you may just get more Germans.
    Quote Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars
    How do you motivate your employees? Waterboarding, of course.
    Ik hou van ferme grieten en dikke pinten
    Down with dried flowers!
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  28. #28
    Member Centurion1's Avatar
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    Default Re: Welcome to the club, Ireland

    How can you even argue that soldiers are not good members of the genepool. Your logic makes no sense.

    Someone who breaks in my home has no rights he is a criminal and I should be entitled to do whatever I wish to protect my family and goods. I don't care if he dies, at all I feel no pity for those who's livelihood entails taking my rightly purchased goods and potentially harming me and my family.

    I was joking about aiming to wound btw.

  29. #29
    Senior Member Senior Member Ser Clegane's Avatar
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    Default Re: Welcome to the club, Ireland

    Quote Originally Posted by Centurion1 View Post
    Someone who breaks in my home has no rights he is a criminal and I should be entitled to do whatever I wish to protect my family and goods.
    So, at what point - in your opinion - does a criminal lose all his rights and deserves to be shot?

    When he breaks into your home, steals stuff and threatens your family?
    When he breaks into your home, steals stuff and tries to get out before somebody notices?
    The moment he is trespassing?
    When he steals something from you outside your home (e.g. a pickpocket)?
    When he steals something from you ina more "white collar" way (e.g. fraud)?

  30. #30
    Member Centurion1's Avatar
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    Default Re: Welcome to the club, Ireland

    Let me clarify that the perfect scenario and the one i would favor is the criminal being appregended and sentenced to prison, not dead. But i should have the right to protect myself.

    A. Yes i should be able to shoot him.
    B. Yes I should have the right to shoot him.
    C. If i give sufficent notice of his impending fate yes i should have legal rights to shoot a man who trespasses upon my property
    D. In technicality, yes i should have the right to shoot him if i feel threatened, if for example i am subjected to a mugging. Personally, i probably woudnt shoot a pickpocket.
    E. I am not directly threatened by this? There is no threat of physical violence or breaking and entering or physical contact? For example my stockbroker is skimming my profits? No i cannot shoot him and this is a unique case and cant be compared to other thefts which is why it has its own distinctive name. It is also a weak argument and a very common one to this particular debate.

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