Wikileaks reveals identity of Afgan informants

[Skullheadhq]

We should have send construction workers instead of soldiers, it's a construction mission after all, and guns don't build schools.

[Ser Clegane]

We should have send construction workers instead of soldiers, it's a construction mission after all, and guns don't build schools.

Would you volunteer to go as a construction worker without the soldiers being there as well?

[Skullheadhq]

Would you volunteer to go as a construction worker without the soldiers being there as well?

Don't call it a construction mission then...

[Ser Clegane]

Don't call it a construction mission then...

In addition to what Louis already pointed out - actual construction is being done.

[Ice]

Don't call it a construction mission then...

What? As it has been said, actual construction is being done. What's wrong with having security in such a dangerous part of the world?

By the way, give credit when you quote a founding father.

[Fragony]

What? As it has been said, actual construction is being done. What's wrong with having security in such a dangerous part of the world?

By the way, give credit when you quote a founding father.

National politics, we officialy don't do combat missions, Uruzgan obviously was one but they kept selling it otherwise so Skull does have a reason to complain.

[Louis VI the Fat]

We should have send construction workers instead of soldiers, it's a construction mission after all, and guns don't build schools.

The 'construction' does not mean erecting buildings. It means building a country. That is, to establish law and order, democracy, a civil society, peace, human rights, and the necessary infrastructure.

When trying to establish law and order, one does not send in lawyers. When trying to buil a civil society, one does not send random civilians. When trying to establish human rights, one does not send in rightwing voters.

And one does not send in construction workers for a construction mission.

[gaelic cowboy]

We should have send construction workers instead of soldiers, it's a construction mission after all, and guns don't build schools.

Actually what they should have done is nuke the place from the safety of the USA declared the war over on telly and everyone could get on with watching Big Brother

[Skullheadhq]

Actually what they should have done is nuke the place from the safety of the USA declared the war over on telly and everyone could get on with watching Big Brother

Modern Warfare ;)

[rory_20_uk]

The 'construction' does not mean erecting buildings. It means building a country. That is, to establish law and order, democracy, a civil society, peace, human rights, and the necessary infrastructure.

When trying to establish law and order, one does not send in lawyers. When trying to buil a civil society, one does not send random civilians. When trying to establish human rights, one does not send in rightwing voters.

And one does not send in construction workers for a construction mission.

True, but ocnstruction implies that there is a foundation to build on, for example Germany or Japan after WW2.

Afghanistan is a swamp. Build in a swamp and the structure sinks slowly beneath the surface without any evidence that it once was there.

[Vladimir]

True, but ocnstruction implies that there is a foundation to build on, for example Germany or Japan after WW2.

Afghanistan is a swamp. Build in a swamp and the structure sinks slowly beneath the surface without any evidence that it once was there.

German foundations : http://www.google.com/images?client=...=&oq=&gs_rfai=

Japanese foundations: http://www.google.com/images?hl=en&c...=&oq=&gs_rfai=

No. They pretty much started from scratch.

[rory_20_uk]

German foundations : http://www.google.com/images?client=...=&oq=&gs_rfai=

Japanese foundations: http://www.google.com/images?hl=en&c...=&oq=&gs_rfai=

No. They pretty much started from scratch.

It's got sod all to do with buildings, but the mentality of the people. In Japan and germany the people immediately worked like ants to rebuild their society. They all knew what they were aiming for and hence reconstruction was possible. Bpth had very similar aspirations to the Allies - the Japanese had modelled many aspects of their culture on the British for example (clearly not all). Aid and expertise was quickly welcomed and resistance was limited at best.

Afghanistan is a place based on Tribes and violence which we are trying to change almost every aspect of without even asking if they want it! The ones that do accept it in the same way anyone accepts vast sums of money which they can trim or employ members of their family - all they have to do is pay the Westerners lip service at the odd meal.

Killing informants might be morally wrong to us, but the locals would still rather be alive.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

True, but ocnstruction implies that there is a foundation to build on, for example Germany or Japan after WW2.

Afghanistan is a swamp. Build in a swamp and the structure sinks slowly beneath the surface without any evidence that it once was there.

".....but the fourth castle."

-- M. Python

[Major Robert Dump]

No, but you have to have guns in order to get schools built. Ignorance, poverty and desolation is what the Taliban needs in order to project itself as a viable governing body. They fear nothing more than people, especially females, who can read, write and make their own decisions. The Taliban and HAqqani attacking workers has a lot less to do with them "working for infidels" than it does with trying to stop improvements in people's qaulity of life.

[rory_20_uk]

No, but you have to have guns in order to get schools built. Ignorance, poverty and desolation is what the Taliban needs in order to project itself as a viable governing body. They fear nothing more than people, especially females, who can read, write and make their own decisions. The Taliban and HAqqani attacking workers has a lot less to do with them "working for infidels" than it does with trying to stop improvements in people's qaulity of life.

Yes the taliban might "fear" these readers and writers, and like all societies before them faced with this problem they'll round them up and kill them if need be. Probably after the first few the rest will get the message.

Own decisions? The village / clan leader makes the decisions. That's the way it always has been. Taliban or not this would continue.

[Major Robert Dump]

The system of elders is already falling apart in more densely populated area. Elders often also own the water karezes and the property where the school, market, etc is. Build people wells and they don't need the elders any more.

In cities, little of what you said regarding clans applies.

Deferring decisions to clan leaders is almost wholly rejected by university students.

Can you not make your own decisions even though you have others representing you in city and state government? Believe me, there are plenty of elders who don't want female education, water wells that circumvent their water monopoly, or paved roads, as it will bust up their little frat party.


Afghanistan is a place based on Tribes and violence which we are trying to change almost every aspect of without even asking if they want it
While I agree that people take money and provide lip service for the sake of a golden egg, from my day to day (literally) dealings with people in Afghanistan, we don't have to ask because they are telling us and asking us. PRTs and ADTs don't just show up and build stuff. There is most certainly a "gotta get mine" attitude of getting while the getting is good. If it means more schools, more people who can run a proper farm and less kids dying from stupid hygiene snafus -- I could care less the means of getting there

[rory_20_uk]

I'm not defending the Afghani way of all power in the hands of a few, but that's the reality of it. Educated Afghans are more likely to leave the country than stay and fix it. Hell, so would I.

Cities are small and dispersed. The number of wars lost with a "hold the cities" approach is rather long. So would this one if not for constant support bolstering the area.

If the idea is the best result for the money, then don't start with Afghanistan. India has vast numbers requiring health and infrastructure that could be bolstered. The levels of waste in Afghanistan are far too high. I don't pay taxes to possibly sort of maybe help sort out a country 1/2 way round the globe when there are areas of London where kids carry knives routinely.