Islamic group to build mosque adjacent to ground zero

[Fragony]

I don't care as long as I don't have to care. What I prefer right know is that they trace back the money, draw their conclusions, and send this imam and his wife of tarred and feathered.

http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/terror-...ir-conference/

Nice friends

Also behind the Flotillas by the way

we con the world, we con the people lalala

[Lemur]

http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/terror-...ir-conference/

Ooooh, he attended a conference in Indonesia. And the people who sponsored the conference, your correspondent breathlessly tells us, are avowed opponents of the governments of Egypt, Syria and Jordan. And some of the speakers said unkind things about Israel and the United States. HE'S EVIL! Then, of course, there is paragraph after paragraph of innuendo, unsourced allegations, straw men, and every tool of the demagogue on display.

Really, Fragony, you need to cast a wider net with your reading. If you do nothing but read and regurgitate what you find in paranoid rightwing blogs, well, you're gonna sound like a loon if you aren't careful.

I've been advised that I'm not supposed to take your posts "literally." Don't know where to go with that bit of advice; I have no doubt that Muslim Orgahs will see your relentless conflation of every Imam with Osama Bin Laden and take appropriate offense. And how should I read your rapturous desire for a religious war of civilizations if not literally? Your positions are, quite obviously, exactly what Al Qaeda wants in westerners. They could not ask for a better ally. I'll say it a third time: You are in grave danger of being a useful idiot.

If I'm supposed to read your rants as some sort of poetry, allegory or code, it's all a bit abstruse and postmodern for this lemur.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

"The Fragony Code"

.....two "snaps" up for that idea!

Now, who should we get to play the lead? What say you Frags, which of the Hollywood leading hunks do you most resemble?

[Fragony]

[QUOTE=Lemur;2053197381]
I've been advised that I'm not supposed to take your posts "literally." Don't know where to go with that bit of advice; I have no doubt that Muslim Orgahs will see your relentless conflation of every Imam with Osama Bin Laden and take appropriate offense. And how should I read your rapturous desire for a religious war of civilizations if not literally?


Well because I never said such a thing for starters. Somehow 'this imam' became 'all imams', just because it's pretty normal doesn't mean it isn't fascinating. And lol@rapturous desire for a religious war of civilizations.

I back up my claims with sources and these sources also have sources. Why don't you play the ball instead of the person.

What do you want me to read? This is widely regarded as the most complete work on the subject http://www.amazon.com/Jihad-Politica.../dp/0674008774 how self-assured must you be that you pressume everybody wants the exact same things as you, they don't share your values.

And did I already mention the 'shariah index'?

[Lemur]

I back up my claims with sources and these sources also have sources.

Meaning you post quick, unformatted links to assorted paranoid demagogues at Pajamas Media. Well done, sir, well done.

I've already deconstructed a representative sample from one of their authors, and made it clear that I am not willing to go through page after page of lying, misrepresenting, bad-faith propoganda every time you choose to post a link. If you want to debate a specific point, well and good, but for you to keep thinking that your'e sourcing your agument with tripe like this is as asonishing as it is ill-considered.

Lastly, pointing out that your sources are (in the most literal sense of the word) incredible does not constitute "playing the man"; ask your friendly neighborhood Backroom mod for the correct definition of that aphorism.

[Fragony]

Meaning you post quick, unformatted links to assorted paranoid demagogues at Pajamas Media. Well done, sir, well done.

Yeah about time someone sues the hell out of them for damaging beardneck's reputation, he means so very very well how could they do that to him.

But ok fine, so you this man has no ties with extremist organisations?

Let's do this in baby-steps

[Lemur]

But ok fine, so you this man has no ties with extremist organisations?

No one credible has shown any. (Note that it is logically impossible to prove a negative.) And given the scrutiny we put Islamic extremists under (the surveillance we have available) I find it hard to believe it wouldn't have come out by now. And no, attending an Islamic conference in Indonesia does not qualify.

Furthermore, the people who actually know the guy, rather than those who hope to use him to score political points, all say that he's mellow, thoughtful and moderate. Which would you be more inclined to believe: Partisan hacks who work for Pajamas Media, or folks who actually interact in real life with the Imam? Put aside whom you would rather believe, and ask yourself, firsthand empirical knowledge or thirdhand rumormongering?

[Fragony]

They aren't exactly making a secret out of being a wing of the muslim brotherhood youknow, banned in Egypt but not in the states. Ok no more sources, should take you at least a minute of your time.

And security means nothing, they are no longer violent they won't attack anyone, it comes from within.

edit, let's still help a little, 'legal jihad', to use the system against us. And there is no moderate muslim brotherhood if that's what you think.

This is about Europe but as you can/should understand you are a bigger target and all the more vulnerable http://www.amazon.com/While-Europe-S.../dp/0385514727

Same guys http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...7181120245843#

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Furthermore, the people who actually know the guy, rather than those who hope to use him to score political points, all say that he's mellow, thoughtful and moderate.
Which would you be more inclined to believe: Partisan hacks who work for Pajamas Media, or folks who actually interact in real life with the Imam? Put aside whom you would rather believe, and ask yourself, firsthand empirical knowledge or thirdhand rumormongering?

I'm not sure what fragony is talking about, but this doesn't seem like any kind of trump card to me. The quotes that have been objected too "america was an accessory" or something like that, would qualify as empirical evidence as well, and the opinion of people who know him isn't particularly great evidence, "I never thought he'd do something like this" is what they always say when someone shoots up a post office, mind you I thought rauf was just being accused of being stupid or something like that and not a crazy.

[Cute Wolf]

@ Lemur : Fragony is right, believe me... many of those "moderate muslims" that most media claims here are actually no more religious than your average atheist guys, they just use muslim name and muslim religious ceremony of marriage and furneral, just like your western atheists use christian marriage and furneral ceremony... I was the one who mix with them everyday...

once the fundamentalists are ruled out, most of them will turn as atheists


ADD:

and pretty much contrary to what your average "peace activists" told you, those fundamentalists muslim's goals are pretty much made their ideology looks docile, and I could scan and prove (from local newspapers here), that the building of mosque on ground zero are treated as muslim victory here...

[Fragony]

@ Lemur : Fragony is right, believe me... many of those "moderate muslims" that most media claims here are actually no more religious than your average atheist guys, they just use muslim name and muslim religious ceremony of marriage and furneral, just like your western atheists use christian marriage and furneral ceremony... I was the one who mix with them everyday...

once the fundamentalists are ruled out, most of them will turn as atheists


ADD:

and pretty much contrary to what your average "peace activists" told you, those fundamentalists muslim's goals are pretty much made their ideology looks docile, and I could scan and prove (from local newspapers here), that the building of mosque on ground zero are treated as muslim victory here...

Thx Cute Wolf, do me a favor and scan these baby's.

Mia muca's your toleration they see as weakness, your laws are manmade not devine. Don't let anyone fool you, 'islam' means 'to submit'.

[Lemur]

They aren't exactly making a secret out of being a wing of the muslim brotherhood youknow, banned in Egypt but not in the states.

Okay, this is something for which there should be a straight-up source. If Rauf is claiming to be affiliated with the Muslim Brotherhood, that would be extraordinary, since Rauf is a Sufi Muslim, and the Muslim Brotherhood, as well as all other extremist Sunni groups, are sworn enemies of the Sufis. (Note the Sufi shrines are a preffered target for suicide bombers.) So your assertion, on the face of it, is utterly, provably false. Strange how that happens when we get down to specific points rather than sweeping hysteria.

And there is no moderate muslim brotherhood if that's what you think.

And the moment the Muslim Brotherhood becomes relevant to Rauf, this will be a great point to make.

This is about Europe but as you can/should understand you are a bigger target and all the more vulnerable http://www.amazon.com/While-Europe-S.../dp/0385514727

Same guys http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...7181120245843#

So now you're citing entire books and hourlong videos as sources? Why do I have the sneaking suspicion that neither your book nor your video deal with Rauf? Let's be honest here, I am not going to buy a book based on your linking it in this discussion, and I'm not going to watch a 48-minute video unless you can confirm that it is directly relevant to our conversation.

I could scan and prove (from local newspapers here), that the building of mosque on ground zero are treated as muslim victory here...

The locals can treat it like the second coming of the Messiah for all I care; this is a whipped-up firestorm meant to delude Americans into selectively abandoning our freedom of religion, and all to hype up a few politicans. We're supposed to see an Islamic Cultural Center in the old Burlington Coat Factory two long city blocks away from the Trade Center as some sort of triumphalist Islamic supremacist plot to humiliate America. The fact that anyone is taking this seriously is quite disappointing.

-edit-

Using as much powerful Google-fu as I can muster on an over-hot Saturday afternoon, I find only two named analysts claiming a connection between Rauf and the Muslim Brotherhood. Both are specious.

First there's Andrew McCarthy of National Review, who finds that a free edition of the Imam's book, What’s Right with Islam Is What’s Right with America, was paid for by the Islamic Society of North America and the International Institute of Islamic Thought, who have also promoted authors connected with Hamas, which McCarthy rather simplistically calls "the Muslim Brotherhood’s ruthless Palestinian branch." Yah, I think Hamas is its own creature, and does not take orders from anybody in Egypt.

Furthermore, this is clearly guilt by association. Does McCarthy have anything of substance, or are we to damn Rauf for allowing one of his books to be published in free edition by a couple of Islamic groups who also support naughtier people? Thin stuff, thin stuff.

McCarthy then draws a tenuous line between Rauf and Yusuf Qaradawi, a somewhat complex figure who has a popular show on Al Jazeera, and who has repeatedly turned down any official role in the Muslim Brotherhood. Apparently Rauf said that Qaradawi is the pre-eminent Islamic Law scholar alive. Who knows, maybe he is. Anyway, this rather slim connection is enough to send McCarthy into a six-paragraph tub-thumping about Qaradawi and the Muslim Brotherhood and how they're all Terribly Bad. Which is as may be, but not relevant to Rauf. (Who, as a Sufi, would be intolerable to the MB anyway.)

The other named source who claims a connection between Rauf and the MB is your standby Alyssa A. Lappen, who really puts the "hysteria" back into hysterical. Her chain of evidence? Try not to laugh:

Rauf’s father, Dr. Muhammad Abdul Rauf (1917-2004) — an Egyptian contemporary of Muslim Brotherhood founder Hassan al-Banna — conveyed to Feisal his family’s long tradition of radicalism, which he acquired at Islam’s closest equivalent to the Vatican, Al-Azhar University. The elder Dr. Rauf studied and taught there before fleeing Egypt in 1948. That year, Feisal Abdul Rauf was born in Kuwait.

Did you follow that? Rauf's father was a student at a university where one of the founders of the MB taught. And that's it. To call that connection "thin" is an insult to slender objects everywhere. Oh, and Rauf was friends with a nun who praised the MB's charitable work.

Feel free to provide any further linkage or evidence of Rauf's involvement with the MB. It looks pretty damn shaky from here.

[Beskar]

"The Fragony Code"

.....two "snaps" up for that idea!

Now, who should we get to play the lead? What say you Frags, which of the Hollywood leading hunks do you most resemble?

I would go for a short haired Josh Holloway, I think with a new haircut and a bit of hair colour, he could look like our Fragony.

[Fragony]

Your religious freedom is nothing more to them than a way to culturally blackmail you, and aren't you put to the test, could it be any more provocative, yet your own laws make it possible. You are expecting something rational because you are being rational, try the maelstrom that is the opposite instead. If you want to hurt, how would you do it.

Watch the video by the way, just about all your (well mine really) arguments are adressed.

edit: you really aren't on the same level if you mention the soeffi's, they are spriritual-only muslims. Being a muslim doesn't mean you are islam. All I can say is that you are wrong.

[Lemur]

could it be any more provocative

Sure, they could propose buildin a mosque at ground zero, rather than in the Burlington Coat Factory building two blocks away. By the way, how many blocks away would their little YMCA ripoff have to be to not be a provocation? Give me an actual number, either in blocks, kilometers or miles, please.

Watch the video by the way, just about all your (well mine really) arguments are adressed.

I'm not going to spend 48 minutes watching propoganda unless you can confirm that it directly addresses Rauf.

you really aren't on the same level if you mention the soeffi's, they are spriritual-only muslims. Being a muslim doesn't mean you are islam. All I can say is that you are wrong.

You don't appear to have even a cursory, Wikipedia-level knowledge of Sufism.

Please feel free to provide linkage between Rauf and the Muslim Brotherhood. I've taken the two most prominent supporters of that theory and ripped them into little quivering hunks of rhetorical bullhockey. The ball is in your court, even if you choose not to play.

[ajaxfetish]

Your religious freedom is nothing more to them than a way to culturally blackmail you, and aren't you put to the test, could it be any more provocative, yet your own laws make it possible.

I really don't care what our religious freedom is to 'them,' whoever 'they' may be. I care more about what it means to me. They're free to build their center on their property, cause this is America, and that's how we do.

Ajax

[Fragony]

Sure, they could propose buildin a mosque at ground zero, rather than in the Burlington Coat Factory building two blocks away. By the way, how many blocks away would their little YMCA ripoff have to be to not be a provocation? Give me an actual number, either in blocks, kilometers or miles, please.


I'm not going to spend 48 minutes watching propoganda unless you can confirm that it directly addresses Rauf.

It's BBC so 100% perfectly acceptable, even in the most religious parts of America like New York.

[Rhyfelwyr]

I think we all agree they have the legal right to do it, the point is whether or not it is the morally right thing to do.

The fact is it is going to upset a lot of the familes of 9/11 victims, why don't they seem to care?

[Lemur]

It's BBC so 100% perfectly acceptable, even in the most religious parts of America like New York.

I have asked, twice, if the 48-minute video is directly related to Rauf and the Cordoba House (or whatever it's being called now). You have dodged and hemmed and hawwed, and now you make a nonsensical statement about the "most religious parts of America."

It's okay, I brought enough rational argument for both of us. Looking it up, I see it's a BBc channel 4 documentary from, 2007 called Undercover Mosque, and that it deals with the Saudi attempt to redicalize mosques in Britain. It has nothing about Rauf, nothing about this controversy and nothing about the Cordoba House.

I'll watch it as time permits, but once again you have introduced a completely tangential and unrelated bit of linkage. Are you trying to say that the same Saudi forces are behind Rauf? Then make that argument, and provide some sort of evidence.

The fact is it is going to upset a lot of the familes of 9/11 victims, why don't they seem to care?

"Upset" is not a legal standard in the U.S.A. The confederate flag is an symbol of secession, rebellion and the enslavement of human beings, but every idiot in America has the right to fly one. If it "upsets" someone, that's between them, nothing to do with the law. And the converse side of that equation is that the rest of us have the right to say what knuckleheads we think the offensive people are. It's freedom v. freedom, which is how things should work here.

Again: The YMCA wanna-be cultural thing-ma-bob is going to be two blocks away in the Burlington Coat Factory building. Allow me to illustrate this for people who aren't familiar with NYC:

Ground zero in 2010:



The Burlington Coat Factory in 2010:



These are two different places.

[Fragony]

I really don't care what our religious freedom is to 'them,' whoever 'they' may be. I care more about what it means to me. They're free to build their center on their property, cause this is America, and that's how we do.

Ajax

As I said, using your system against you. You can't do anything without betraying it.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Lemur, this seems to be what the video is about:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Undercover_Mosque

nevermind, I see you found that.

Well, what Fragony is suggesting is that this documentary found evidence of extremist statements at islamic cultural centers, like this new mosque is supposed to be, and is comparing rauf to tariq ramadan, who is supported by many and heavily criticized by many. I don't know whether it's accurate or not, but it's a fairly basic and clear suggestion.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

I think we all agree they have the legal right to do it, the point is whether or not it is the morally right thing to do.

The fact is it is going to upset a lot of the familes of 9/11 victims, why don't they seem to care?

"Upset" is not a legal standard in the U.S.A. The confederate flag is an symbol of secession, rebellion and the enslavement of human beings, but every idiot in America has the right to fly one. If it "upsets" someone, that's between them, nothing to do with the law. And the converse side of that equation is that the rest of us have the right to say what knuckleheads we think the offensive people are. It's freedom v. freedom, which is how things should work here.

I'll watch it as time permits, but once again you have introduced a completely tangential and unrelated bit of linkage.

Well the reason this is being trumped up and called the ground zero mosque and all this talk about american and freedom of religion is that it happened to be the spark that set off another round of debate regarding islam. So we might as well go with the flow rather than worrying about whether something is tangential and unrelated.

[Rhyfelwyr]

"Upset" is not a legal standard in the U.S.A. The confederate flag is an symbol of secession, rebellion and the enslavement of human beings, but every idiot in America has the right to fly one. If it "upsets" someone, that's between them, nothing to do with the law. And the converse side of that equation is that the rest of us have the right to say what knuckleheads we think the offensive people are. It's freedom v. freedom, which is how things should work here.

T'was a little bit sneaky of you to only show the second line from my post, since I made it very clear in the first that they have all the legal rights you are talking about here.

What I was asking was whether it was still the 'right' thing to do. IMO they should build it elsewhere. As you've pointed out there's no formula to work out an exact distance from Ground Zero where it becomes OK, but does it really have to be just a couple of blocks away?

[Lemur]

Well, what Fragony is suggesting is that this documentary found evidence of extremist statements at islamic cultural centers, like this new mosque is supposed to be, and is comparing rauf to tariq ramadan, who is supported by many and heavily criticized by many. I don't know whether it's accurate or not, but it's a fairly basic and clear suggestion.

That's a long chain of assertions, none of which were actually, you know, articulated by Fragony. The comparison between Rauf and Ramadan? That's news to me. Does someone want to make, I dunno, something resembling an argument out of that? And the main point of the documentary seems to be Saudi funding (and hence radicalization) of British mosques. Anybody want to make the argument that Rauf is Saudi funded?

-edit-

Rhyfelwyr, I wasn't trying to misrepresent you, and I'm sorry if it came off that way. As for the right thing, I haven't the foggiest. Last I heard, the 9/11 victim families were not exactly united in opposition, and I don't see how we can forbid the cultural center without violating some core American principles.

[Fragony]

As I said mia muca, we are taking baby-steps, this it's just about his buddies, it gets much worse.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

and I don't see how we can forbid the cultural center without violating some core American principles.

Can it be objected to on non-legal grounds and criticized without violating some core american principles?

[Lemur]

As I said mia muca, we are taking baby-steps, this it's just about his buddies, it gets much worse.

Put up or shut up. His "buddies"? Do you substantiate anything when discussing beards, or is that beneath you?

Heck, just gimme something of substance about this much-claimed link between Rauf and the Muslim Brotherhood. Just give me that, and we won't call this a rain game.

Can it be objected to on non-legal grounds and criticized without violating some core american principles?

Is "forbid" synonymous with "objected to"?

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Lemur I'm confused, Rhyf was talking about whether it could be objected to on moral grounds, and you said it couldn't be made illegal, and he pointed out that he said it should be legal, and you said you didn't want to misrepresent him but that you didn't see any way to make it illegal, and then I asked you if it could be objected to, and you ask if objected to is the same thing as forbid, basically what do you think about the mosque aside from legality, don't you think that's an interesting question?

Put up or shut up. His "buddies"? Do you substantiate anything when discussing beards, or is that beneath you?

for example you would probably argue that we can't forbid people from making unsubstantiated arguments without violating some core .org principles, but you certainly object to it.

[Fragony]

lol Lemur could it just be possible that not everybody craves that new lawmower. Start adressing, your personal dismissal isn't an argument except for fans.

[Lemur]

In the interest of pulling you off your meta-conversational perch, Sasaki, why don't you tell us what you think? You have a tendency to float above a debate, telling us who's in bounds and who's out; I'd rather see you formulate and defend an actual position. As for me a Rhyf., fear not, we'll be okay. I believe he's arguing in good faith, and I think he knows the same about me.

I'll happily clarify my position as soon as you articulate your own (and as soon as Fragony can substantiate any aspect of his argument).

-edit-

Fragony, you don't appear to be making any sense. Link Rauf to the Muslim Brotherhood. Please.