Islamic group to build mosque adjacent to ground zero

[Lemur]

And from an interview he gave Ed Bradley, on September 20th, 2001:

So the Imam believes (or believed, that interview is nine years old, and I'm not going to assume he's still all about that) that the atrocities of 9/11 were at least partially the result of "blowback." This was not a completely unheard-of opinion. Such violent lefties as Ron Paul voiced such perspectives publicly.

Look, I think the "blowback" theory is oversimplified, and I think that the folks who believe OBL was "made in the USA" are as wrong as a wrong person can be. But I do not think having that opinion is a game-ending disqualifier from all public discourse. Many of the factual elements of the "blowback" theory are correct. We have backed horrible dictators in the middle-east. We have encouraged political and social stasis. None of that is incorrect. Nevertheless, those who think that America brought 9/11 on ourselves are wrong.

So. Your quotes don't move me, or convince me that this Imam is a bad man. There are lots of people with whom I disagree whom I don't believe should be excluded from public life.

Islam and the west aren't compatible how much proof do you need, they are hostiles.

You do your argument no favors with this sort of sweeping generalization. Guys like OBL want a war of civilizations; useful idiots want to give it to him. I'd say the Imam is a much greater threat to OBL's philosophy than you, friend. You fit right into the Wahabbist narrative.

[ajaxfetish]

Jon Stewart's take

Ajax

[Beskar]

Well, that sounds okay to me but if the memorial looks anything like a big phallus, you will know they're lying to you...

Since basically all memorials look pretty similar to the Washington Monument... how do you explain that?

[miotas]

Well, that sounds okay to me but if the memorial looks anything like a big phallus, you will know they're lying to you...

Wouldn't want anything like this now, would we?

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Don Corleone]

It's normal muslims kill eachother. America is making the same mistake Europe made, don't. The UK thought they had the formula, Sweden still can't stop dripping, Islam and the west aren't compatible how much proof do you need, they are hostiles. And I don't mean the people who were born in an Islamic country with that.

Not that I don't appreciate your support, old friend, but I have to repudiate this statement. I am not making any sort of statement about Muslims in general or mosques in New York City.

I just went to cook my lunch in the microwave. While I was waiting, a glaring inconsistency hit me in the head like a brick...

Imam Abdul Rauf claims he wants to build inter-faith networks, cooperation and understanding.

If that's true, why isn't he openining an interfaith center? Why doesn't he have a chapel and a synagogue on the grounds?

[Fragony]

@Lemur, I make no generalisations, can't help it if you are born in Saudi Arabia after all. But when you choose to be an islamist oh so bye. And that is what is now in America as well.

[Don Corleone]

So. Your quotes don't move me, or convince me that this Imam is a bad man. There are lots of people with whom I disagree whom I don't believe should be excluded from public life.

Hey, no fair using my Sith Lord tricks of mischaracterization of argument against me.

I don't think I ever said the Imam was necessarily a bad man. And I'm pretty damn sure I never said he should be excluded from public life.

He is building a mosque at the site of 9/11, and his justification is "I'm a tolerant inter-faith man of the west, trust me". I provided you with 2 examples where that was shown not to be the case, and therefore, his claims should not automatically get the benefit of the doubt.

And as I mentioned during my lunchbox epiphany, he of all people SHOULD have had the idea to make it an inter-faith center, not a conquerers mosque (which could arguably be dedicated to the 19 martyrs at any time, by a planned or unplanned successor).

[Strike For The South]

I think it's perfect

[miotas]

He is building a mosque at the site of 9/11, and his justification is "I'm a tolerant inter-faith man of the west, trust me". I provided you with 2 examples where that was shown not to be the case, and therefore, his claims should not automatically get the benefit of the doubt.

His belief, nine years ago, that US military interference in the middle east may have contributed to them attacking you doesn't mean he is intollerant.

And as I mentioned during my lunchbox epiphany, he of all people SHOULD have had the idea to make it an inter-faith center, not a conquerers mosque (which could arguably be dedicated to the 19 martyrs at any time, by a planned or unplanned successor).

He is Islamic after all. He may be accepting of catholics, but that doesn't mean he takes communion. If he were to build a place of worship it would be a mosque. It's a community centre and the mosque is just one part of it.

[Don Corleone]

While I always find Jon Stewart amusing and entertaining, you're not honestly submitting his monologue as evidentiary, I hope....

The whole thing with the NASA meatball morphing into the muslim crescent? That was Daily Show video editors, not Fox ones. He disclaims everything as "meant for entertainment purposes only", which is how I choose to allow him to enter debates like these.

[PanzerJaeger]

Originally Posted by Imam Abdul Rauf and Ed Bradley
BRADLEY: Are — are — are you in any way suggesting that we in the United States deserved what happened?
Imam ABDUL RAUF: I wouldn’t say that the United States deserved what happened, but the United States policies were an accessory to the crime that happened.
BRADLEY: OK. You say that we’re an accessory?
Imam ABDUL RAUF: Yes.
BRADLEY: How?
Imam ABDUL RAUF: Because we have been an accessory to a lot of — of innocent lives dying in the world. In fact, it — in the most direct sense, Osama bin Laden is made in the USA.

What a disagreeable person.

This is not the place to build a mosque and these are certainly not the people to do it.

[Fragony]

Not that I don't appreciate your support, old friend, but I have to repudiate this statement. I am not making any sort of statement about Muslims in general or mosques in New York City.

I just went to cook my lunch in the microwave. While I was waiting, a glaring inconsistency hit me in the head like a brick...

Imam Abdul Rauf claims he wants to build inter-faith networks, cooperation and understanding.

If that's true, why isn't he openining an interfaith center? Why doesn't he have a chapel and a synagogue on the grounds?

I don't support you, just your amazement.

Maybe the people who think this is a good idea would like to explain why they think it is such a great idea.

[Don Corleone]

He is Islamic after all. He may be accepting of catholics, but that doesn't mean he takes communion. If he were to build a place of worship it would be a mosque. It's a community centre and the mosque is just one part of it.

I think you're being deliberately obtuse on this one, so there's probably not much for me to say in a rebuttal.

[PanzerJaeger]

Maybe the people who think this is a good idea would like to explain why they think it is such a great idea.

To make it into the dictionary as the example of the antonym of 'discretion'?

[Beskar]

Osama bin Laden is made in the USA.

What a disagreeable person.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Abdul's Translation:
"He was trained by the CIA, and heavily funded by the CIA, even though he is a loony bin, to combat the Russians in Afghanistan and other American interests"

Jaegar's Translation:
"How dare you tell the truth?! We are the self-proclaimed almightly leaders of the free world, leaders of Democracy!!"

Yeah, sometimes saying the truth hurts. Not like America funding dictators and terrorists like Saddam, Obama Bin Laden, Coup of Democratic Iran, its malevolent meddling of international affairs, amongst other things, will ever backfire on them.

Perhaps admitting that there were some serious misjudgements which caused certain ramifications of actions instead of proclaiming yourself "Leaders of the Free World" while being the number one support of despots and terrorism is anything to go by.

So the anger against his comments are false, America did some mistakes. However, he said people make those mistakes and can move on, and get better. He also want to bring better understanding and also aid in a more 'Western' Islam, which many muslims cry out for as well. But, since building such a building of tolerance a mile away near a place of intolerance is such a bad thing, there is much objection.

[miotas]

I think you're being deliberately obtuse on this one, so there's probably not much for me to say in a rebuttal.

You ask why doesn't he build a church or a synagogue? The answer is pretty simple: because he isn't a Christian or a Jew.

I'm not religious, so I won't go out of my way to build a place of worship, but that doesn't mean I hate religious people.

[Don Corleone]

You ask why doesn't he build a church or a synagogue? The answer is pretty simple: because he isn't a Christian or a Jew.

I'm not religious, so I won't go out of my way to build a place of worship, but that doesn't mean I hate religious people.

So there it is.... you agree with me that the construction of this mosque is more about the practice and advancement of Islam than it is what Imam Abdul Rauf himself said his goal was, that the mosque is not about spreading Islam, but spreading tolerance.

Thank you for ceding the point.

[Husar]

Since basically all memorials look pretty similar to the Washington Monument... how do you explain that?

Macho culture isn't unique to islamic extremists?
I was not very serious though, just trying to sneak in a silly joke.

[lars573]

What a disagreeable person.

This is not the place to build a mosque and these are certainly not the people to do it.

He is however correct.

[Don Corleone]

Yeah, sometimes saying the truth hurts. Not like America funding dictators and terrorists like Saddam, Obama Bin Laden, Coup of Democratic Iran, its malevolent meddling of international affairs, amongst other things, will ever backfire on them.

Perhaps admitting that there were some serious misjudgements which caused certain ramifications of actions instead of proclaiming yourself "Leaders of the Free World" while being the number one support of despots and terrorism is anything to go by.

So the anger against his comments are false, America did some mistakes. However, he said people make those mistakes and can move on, and get better. He also want to bring better understanding and also aid in a more 'Western' Islam, which many muslims cry out for as well. But, since building such a building of tolerance a mile away near a place of intolerance is such a bad thing, there is much objection.

Take a deep breath. Nobody is saying that America is perfect, or that we're blameless. And I'm not certain I understand your last sentance at all. If the place of intolerance you reference is Ground Zero (not sure why we're being branded as intolerant) and the building of tolerance that's being built is the mosque (not sure how building a mosque makes you any more or less tolerant or how building it in such a sensitive location makes it tolerant), then you should know the distance between the two proposed locations is 600 feet (about 170 meters). And I lied about the construction earlier, it's not 9 stories, it's 15, with an unobstructed view, looking down on Ground Zero. When you go to Ground Zero, which will remain a park, the "Al Getchu Nxt" mosque, with it's minarets and towering 15 story presence will dominate your view of the skyline.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Before everyone gets their panties in a wad about my name for the mosque, relax. I meant it jokingly, inspired by Ajax's Jon Stewart link.

[Fragony]

You ask why doesn't he build a church or a synagogue? The answer is pretty simple: because he isn't a Christian or a Jew.

I'm not religious, so I won't go out of my way to build a place of worship, but that doesn't mean I hate religious people.

Lol even in Turkey it's pretty much impossible to build a church, fine with me but still. Or what is still staying/standing on Cyprus but yeah it's mutual respect.

[Beskar]

Take a deep breath. Nobody is saying that America is perfect, or that we're blameless.

So the poster I quoted calling a guy a "dick" because he was correct doesn't suggest that at all?

Question about my last line.

The intolerence linked to ground zero was meaning both the intolerant extremists, and some of the intolerant extremists on the American side too. Building a place of tolerance nearby is saying "Look, we made our mistakes, extremists on both sides isn't good, let's be real here, lets spread some tolerance and good will between us, so this will never happen again".

If America wanted to send a really powerful message, build a new UN headquarters or "Beacon of Tolerance" as a new national momument right ontop of Ground Zero it self. If America was really serious about this, they instantly get +rep with me.

[Don Corleone]

I don't think Panzer would ever make a statement that we in the US have been flawless practitioners of selfless humanity in the execution of our foreign policy. Recognizing that a religious leader, speaking about an attack on the nation he claims to be a member of 1 week after it happened and saying essentially "you created the problem" puts him into the dick category, for lack of good taste if for no other reason.

Your answer to all of this is we should build a monument to the world, claiming we admit we deserved it and we're sorry? Must be really pleasant to live in your reality.

[PanzerJaeger]

Is there nothing to be said for common courtesy?

These people are well within their rights to build a mosque in that location. I do not oppose their plans because I believe they are making subtle references to past Muslim conquest or because I believe they will recruit terrorist there (they will probably just funnel money to Pakistan like all good Muslim ‘community centers’), but because it is just plain rude. It’s as rude as those Christians that try to recruit outside of the Muslim festival in Dearborn, Michigan.

As has been pointed out, there are hundreds of mosques in New York. Obviously Americans are not against the building of mosques in general. But when it came to light that there was significant objection to this specific mosque in this specific location, particularly by families of 9/11 victims, the appropriate action would have been to find a different location. Instead, every action taken by the builders has been provocative at worst and insensitive at best, up to and including the half-hearted, quickly thrown together ‘9/11 memorial’ and the planned date for opening the place.

One of the 9/11 widows (or a mother of one of the victims) walked out of a town hall meeting last week so upset that she had a heart attack. The building of this mosque means something to her and hundreds of others in her position, and in turn, that should mean something to, for a lack of a more apt description, these arrogant Muslim dicks.

[Xiahou]

I fail to see the linkage. I still believe it was jingoistic and paranoid to deny the Dubai Ports World harbor management deal. That had more to do with getting Charles Schumer reelected than anything.

The DPW debacle was a bipartisan effort. Peter King and other Republican congressmen were on the dogpile right along with Schumer and co. Which is why it reminds me of the current situation.

This on the other hand is a project that aspires to build a conquerer's mosque overlooking the memorial at Ground Zero, built by a man who is on record stating that America got what it deserved, who chose to name his group after the capital of Islamic conquest of the West, Cordoba.

It's not overlooking Ground Zero, it will have an obstructed view of the new World Trade Center whenever it's built- that's about it. Also, the mosque will only be a small part of the structure.

If they are really planning on opening the center on 9/11/11, that would truly be in bad, bad taste. But the building itself seems innocent enough.

EDIT:

But when it came to light that there was significant objection to this specific mosque in this specific location, particularly by families of 9/11 victims, the appropriate action would have been to find a different location.

To be fair, 9/11 families come down on both sides of this- there are those that support the center as well. Also, i've heard NYC officials claim that the large majority of the complaints are coming from outside of NYC.

But we both agree that we have no reason to stop them.

[Beskar]

Your answer to all of this is we should build a monument to the world, claiming we admit we deserved it and we're sorry? Must be really pleasant to live in your reality.

I love the twisting, when I obviously said "We should move on from past mistakes, and work against intolerance and promote greater tolerance so this never happens again" = "admit we deserved it and we are sorry", which has completely different linguistical connonactions and intentions.

[PanzerJaeger]

He is however correct.

He was not correct, not in the slightest. Rationale and complicity and two completely different concepts, and the good Imam crossed a logical line that betrayed his true feelings. America was in no way an accessory to that crime.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Is there nothing to be said for common courtesy?

These people are well within their rights to build a mosque in that location. I do not oppose their plans because I believe they are making subtle references to past Muslim conquest or because I believe they will recruit terrorist there (they will probably just funnel money to Pakistan like all good Muslim ‘community centers’), but because it is just plain rude. It’s as rude as those Christians that try to recruit outside of the Muslim festival in Dearborn, Michigan.

As has been pointed out, there are hundreds of mosques in New York. Obviously Americans are not against the building of mosques in general. But when it came to light that there was significant objection to this specific mosque in this specific location, particularly by families of 9/11 victims, the appropriate action would have been to find a different location. Instead, every action taken by the builders has been provocative at worst and insensitive at best, up to and including the half-hearted, quickly thrown together ‘9/11 memorial’ and the planned date for opening the place.

One of the 9/11 widows (or a mother of one of the victims) walked out of a town hall meeting last week so upset that she had a heart attack. The building of this mosque means something to her and hundreds of others in her position, and in turn, that should mean something to, for a lack of a more apt description, these arrogant Muslim jerks.

Yes, this exactly the reason to oppose the mosque. The people defending it seem to talk mostly about "islamaphobes" whatever that means.

I think this:

Just to throw a little more fuel on the fire, the proposed date for the grand opening is September 11, 2011.

Makes the "it's two blocks away!" argument a bit silly...there is obviously a direct connection with the 9/11 attacks.

They say the main recruiting tool of al quaeda is "The Narrative", where America is hell bent on wiping islam from the face of the earth. There is definite value in gestures like this...people should know why it is being made though.

I think they should build it, but they could talk about it better (mind you I've only read what's in the thread here).

[Crazed Rabbit]

Abdul's Translation:
"He was trained by the CIA, and heavily funded by the CIA, even though he is a loony bin, to combat the Russians in Afghanistan and other American interests"

Jaegar's Translation:
"How dare you tell the truth?! We are the self-proclaimed almightly leaders of the free world, leaders of Democracy!!"

Yeah, sometimes saying the truth hurts.

I don't think you'd know anything about that;

BERGEN [known for conducting the first television interview with Osama bin Laden in 1997]: This is one of those things where you cannot put it out of its misery.

The story about bin Laden and the CIA -- that the CIA funded bin Laden or trained bin Laden -- is simply a folk myth. There's no evidence of this. In fact, there are very few things that bin Laden, Ayman al-Zawahiri and the U.S. government agree on. They all agree that they didn't have a relationship in the 1980s. And they wouldn't have needed to. Bin Laden had his own money, he was anti-American and he was operating secretly and independently.

And what do Al-Queda leaders and the Us government agree on? That the US didn't fund or train Osama;

They argue that:

* with a quarter of a million local Afghans willing to fight there was no need to recruit foreigners unfamiliar with the local language, customs or lay of the land
* that with several hundred million dollars a year in funding from non-American, Muslim sources, Arab Afghans themselves would have no need for American funds
* that Americans could not train mujahideen because Pakistani officials would not allow more than a handful of them to operate in Pakistan and none in Afghanistan[24];
* that the Afghan Arabs were militant Islamists, reflexively hostile to Westerners, and prone to threaten or attack Westerners even though they knew the Westerners were helping the mujahideen.

Al-Qaeda leader Ayman al-Zawahiri says much the same thing in his book Knights Under the Prophet's Banner.[25]

This mosque is in bad taste. The families of the dead don't want it - if the Iman in charge really wanted to respect interfaith dialog, he'd pay attention.

CR

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

So what's the problem?

If they were building directly on top of the building sure there might be a case, but two blocks away? I honestly don't see any issue here. And if there is an issue, how far away would you consider to be the distance at which mosques should be built? 5 blocks, 10 blocks, outside of New York altogether?

Yes. Tell the poor Muslims to build it somewhere else.


Can you see us building a church in Lebanon or Tehran?