Islamic group to build mosque adjacent to ground zero

[Cute Wolf]

The problem with the Islam is first and foremost leftists who want to fold it in their loving embrace, like an overly protective mother they hiss at everyone who bring up even the remote possibility of a problem, and when they see it themself they ignore it because there can't be trouble in their perfect family. I AM A GOOD MOTHER.

they never know, when this child gains majority in a country, they will systematically strip everyone that sasn't muslim form their rights, right now is Ramadhan, the muslims are fasting, and no food shop opened except in downtown and that was pretty much annual misery that I endure here, eating on the open will made me fined, and I didn't have much beer left right now.... dammit, and you leftist still said muslims are different from "fundamentalist muslims"... geez....

[Fragony]

heh, you are a minority in a muslim country, do you really think you know more about it than a selfcongratulating morally superior pipesmoking gutmensch with a degree in sociology.

Things are different here though, there are many moderate muslims who don't want all that, but it changes once the beards get a hold, then the intimidation of these muslims begins. The rather sinister named 'uncles'.

edit: for fairness of argument I'm tossing some ammo at the other side http://www.ny1.com/content/top_stories/?ArID=123569 Patterson's proposal is taken into consideration

[al Roumi]

Fundamentalist Islam is Islam. Everything else is just a diluted exercise in maintaining cultural tradition.

No, "fundamentalist Islam" is not teh Islam, or Islam in its Acme form. Saying this you are doing a massive favour to fundamentalists. There are many forms of fundamentalist islam (most notoriously Wahabism/Salafism), and many forms of non-fundamentalist Islam (e.g. Sufism). To say one is more "Islamic" than another is as wrong as to say 7th day Adventists are more "Christian" than Anglicans, Catholics or Greek Orthodox. Clearly, each will consider themselves as Islamic or Christian as the other (if not more so, as of course THEY are right).

In saying that the only true Muslim is a fundamentalist (e.g. Wahabi in favour of AQ), you simultatneously insult and impair the non-fundamentalist, while bolstering the arguments of both AQ and fundamentalist Muslims.

Some may see the issue of AQ and fundamentalists/extremsists as an East/West contest, they are blind to the greater, and far bloodier, East/East contest that is internal to the Muslim world. There is a risk that if the west shuns non-fundamentalist muslims, they will lose their "battle" with the extremists.

[Rhyfelwyr]

No, "fundamentalist Islam" is not teh Islam, or Islam in its Acme form.

People do the same with Christianity, If I had a penny for everytime someone told me real Christians don't eat pork...

Well actually such an interpretation would be more literalist than fundamentalist, but anyway.

[rory_20_uk]

According to Timothy 2 Christians should all eat meat:

Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
002: Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
003: Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
004: For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:
005: For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

[Skullheadhq]

they never know, when this child gains majority in a country, they will systematically strip everyone that sasn't muslim form their rights, right now is Ramadhan, the muslims are fasting, and no food shop opened except in downtown and that was pretty much annual misery that I endure here, eating on the open will made me fined, and I didn't have much beer left right now.... dammit, and you leftist still said muslims are different from "fundamentalist muslims"... geez....

That sucks, you get fined for eating?

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Panzer:

Like you, I am less than sanguine about Islamic fundamentalists. To be fair, I also get a little cockeyed over Christian fundamentalists as well -- Westboro Baptist and Appalachian snake services for example. I would no more claim the latter to be inherently "not real" Americans than I would the former.

Please Note: I am actually unsure of how much of the misogyny associated with Islam is a product of Islam as opposed to a product of traditional Arabian/West Asian cultural practice. I am not going to assume the religion to be the sole/primary source here, though I note the possibility. The mis-treatment of women all to prevalent in many Islamic countries is not acceptable to me.

What I want from a "real" American is for you to emigrate to this country legally, learn its civic traditions, and work for the betterment of your community, your state, and your country. By preference, you should be involved and aware and not reveling in your own ignorance, and it would be appropriate for you to vote in elections. Serving in the military is a plus. Religion, skin-color, or your preference for copulating with your own lawn furniture is pretty much irrelevant to this (providing appropriate social decorum is observed).

[al Roumi]

Please Note: I am actually unsure of how much of the misogyny associated with Islam is a product of Islam as opposed to a product of traditional Arabian/West Asian cultural practice. I am not going to assume the religion to be the sole/primary source here, though I note the possibility. The mis-treatment of women all to prevalent in many Islamic countries is not acceptable to me.

With respect to FGM (and only FGM), this is certainly not an "Islamic" -in the sense of appearing in the Qu'ran or Hadith - concept. It is popular in East African cultures, of which Hirsa Ali is descended, being Somali. I've never heard of Asian or Middle Eastern Muslims practicing FGM. My understanding is that FGM is an east African cultural concept, not directly related to Islam as it is also present in non Islamic East-African cultures.

But that is only FGM.

[Fragony]

I guess FGM means forced girl marriage?

[Rhyfelwyr]

I guess FGM means forced girl marriage?

Female genital mutilation, I never got it till I went back and read the bit in Sasaki's spoilers.

[Fragony]

Female genital mutilation, I never got it till I went back and read the bit in Sasaki's spoilers.

Wow, there is a abreviation for cutting up a girls vagina, how very humanly humanistic. **** comes to mind.

[al Roumi]

Wow, there is a abreviation for cutting up a girls vagina, how very humanly humanistic. stfu comes to mind.

Fool me for thinking we had a clue what we are talking about here... never mind.

Edit:

The point, in simple terms, although these don't appear to be effective with you either Fragony, is that Female Genital Mutilation (FGM - a commonly used acronym for those discussing this issue) is not an ISLAMIC practice, it is a cultural practice -and not one exclusive to Muslims either.

I am not for one second going to excuse it. It's butchery. But it's not RELIGIOUS.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Fool me for thinking we had a clue what we are talking about here... never mind.

With respect to FGM (and only FGM), this is certainly not an "Islamic" -in the sense of appearing in the Qu'ran or Hadith - concept. It is popular in East African cultures, of which Hirsa Ali is descended, being Somali. I've never heard of Asian or Middle Eastern Muslims practicing FGM. My understanding is that FGM is an east African cultural concept, not directly related to Islam as it is also present in non Islamic East-African cultures.

But that is only FGM.

http://www.murdoch.edu.au/elaw/issue...#ii%29%20Who_T

# An estimated 135 million of the world's girls and women have undergone genital mutilation and 2 million girls a year, approximately 6 000 a day, are at risk of FGM.[26]

# FGM is practised in more than 40 countries; this number is rising because of increasing migration to Western countries from traditionally practising countries.[27] It has been reported in Australia, Canada, Denmark, France, Italy, Netherlands, Sweden, UK and USA.[28]

# FGM is practised extensively in Africa, is common in the Middle East and has been reported among Muslim populations in Indonesia, Sri Lanka, Malaysia and among the indigenous peoples of Columbia, Mexico and Peru.[29]

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m.../ai_102025141/

The incidence of FGM in women worldwide is unknown; however, rough estimates range from 114 to 130 million women. FGM is most commonly practiced in African countries where up to 90% of women in Djibouti, Ethiopia, Eritrea, Sierra Leone, Somalia, and Sudan (North) have been circumcised. Other African countries such as Benin, Burkina, Faso, Central African Republic, Chad, Cote d'Ivoire, Egypt, Gambia, Guinea, Guinea Bissau, Kenya, Liberia, Mali, Nigeria, and Togo have reported a 50% incidence (WHO, 1998). This practice can also be found in the Middle East countries including the Oman, Yemen, the United Arab Emirates and Asian countries including Indonesia, Malaysia, Sri Lanka, and India. Some cultures are strictly forbidden to disclose information about their practices so data collection is inadequate.

http://www.ipu.org/wmn-e/fgm-prov-p.htm

SRI LANKA

* Current status: Female genital mutilation is practiced among the Muslim population in Sri Lanka. The share of Muslims is 7.6 per cent. However, the majority of Muslims do not practice FGM. Precise details and figures are not available, as this is practiced in utmost secrecy.
* Legislation: No legislation has been enacted to curb it.

http://www.pri.org/business/nonprofi...-iraq2052.html

The emotionally, physically and psychologically disturbing practice of female genital mutilation (FGM) is surprisingly common in Northern Iraq. A recent survey found that more than 40 percent of women in the Chamchamal district had undergone the risky procedure that involves the removal of the clitoris and sometimes other genital parts.

The issue is complicated by inaccurate or nonexistant data, african immigrant populations, and differing types of fgm.

But the main issue we've been talking about here--when millions of people believe that a religion justifies a certain action, how much sense does it make to point to original texts? Religion and culture are intertwined--the developments that take place in the centuries after the original texts are written seem to me to be a part of the religion.

Basically, claiming a practice is not religious, when millions of the people of that religion would disagree with you, seems bizarre. If I knew more about christianity...aren't their some basic things that are considered christian (or catholic maybe) that aren't based on original texts?

[Fragony]

Yeah and that is where you are willing to make an exception, can be anything but, good job .

[al Roumi]

But the main issue we've been talking about here--when millions of people believe that a religion justifies a certain action, how much sense does it make to point to original texts? Religion and culture are intertwined--the developments that take place in the centuries after the original texts are written seem to me to be a part of the religion.

As my earlier post, the reason for saying it is not a part of religion is because the interpretation of faith and religion is not the same for everyone. Hence Reenk's point about the need to be specific in terminology and scope. Lumping a whole load of factors under a single heading is easy, but quickly gets one into hot water when faced with the subtleties of reality.

Some Somali's may think FGM is religious, others do not.

If you'd like an example from Christianity; people could, looking at the KKK or the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, acuse all Christians of violently persecuting black people or of practicing extreme forms of polygamy.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

As my earlier post, the reason for saying it is not a part of religion is because the interpretation of faith and religion is not the same for everyone.
...
If you'd like an example from Christianity; people could, looking at the KKK or the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, acuse all Christians of violently persecuting black people or of practicing extreme forms of polygamy.

I'm thinking of things like the sacrament, baptism, priest celibacy...aka many of the things that have caused division in christianity. It's generally agreed that these are religious customs. They have a cultural basis, aren't practiced by all christians, are practiced in some other cultures etc. You wouldn't say that they "aren't a part of religion" because the interpretation of faith and religion is not the same for everyone.

[Reenk Roink]

I'm thinking of things like the sacrament, baptism, priest celibacy...aka many of the things that have caused division in christianity. It's generally agreed that these are religious customs. They have a cultural basis, aren't practiced by all christians, are practiced in some other cultures etc. You wouldn't say that they "aren't a part of religion" because the interpretation of faith and religion is not the same for everyone.

Well the thing is, people might be more willing to accept things as "an islamic problem" if it's pretty clearly shown that it has a strong basis in the religion and, like say, fasting in Ramadan. Sure there are probably groups out there who don't fast and have different views, but in this case it's pretty obvious that this custom is uniquely Islamic.

Take a look at your second article you posted to see why exactly people reject such simplistic associations Sasaki. On the very first page with the quote you reproduced, the article said:

The origins of female circumcision and female genital mutilation are unknown. It is believed that female genital mutilation originated in Africa as far back as the fifth century B.C. and has taken place in ancient Egypt, ancient Rome, Arabia, and Tsarist Russia. Ancient female Egyptian mummies were found to be circumcised, "suggesting that it was practiced as a sign of distinction" (Nour, 2000, para. 5). It was used in England during the Victorian period to treat psychological disorders and to prevent masturbation in women (Hopkins, 1999). In Europe and in the United States as late as the 1930's, "removal of the clitoris or prepuce was performed to treat clitoral enlargement, redundancy, hysteria, lesbianism, and erotomania" (Nour, para. 5).

J. Marion Sims, the "Father of Gynecology" (in the U.S.) endorsed the practice of clitorectomies well into the twentieth century. The practice of clitorectomy for psychiatric disorders became popular with Freudian psychoanalysis. Oophorectomy, or removal of the ovaries, also known as female castration, and hysterectomies were widespread as a cure for psychological disorders and continued in the U.S. until the mid-1940's.

ESPECIALLY if the intent is to actually do something about these problems, the first step is understanding very clearly where they come from, and how exactly they relate to religion. And my major point: having a nuanced view is going to be a lot more effective in combating it it, not to mention you avoid unnecessarily pissing a lot of people off with factually and politically incorrect statements.

[Rahwana]

That sucks, you get fined for eating?

yeah, all non muslims are supposed to "honour" the muslim rituals, one month of boredness and hunger for him...

With respect to FGM (and only FGM), this is certainly not an "Islamic" -in the sense of appearing in the Qu'ran or Hadith - concept. It is popular in East African cultures, of which Hirsa Ali is descended, being Somali. I've never heard of Asian or Middle Eastern Muslims practicing FGM. My understanding is that FGM is an east African cultural concept, not directly related to Islam as it is also present in non Islamic East-African cultures.

But that is only FGM.

FGM is still present in some muslim communities in hinterland Malaysia though, oh wait, Malaysia is east african country

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Well the thing is, people might be more willing to accept things as "an islamic problem" if it's pretty clearly shown that it has a strong basis in the religion and, like say, fasting in Ramadan. Sure there are probably groups out there who don't fast and have different views, but in this case it's pretty obvious that this custom is uniquely Islamic.

Take a look at your second article you posted to see why exactly people reject such simplistic associations Sasaki. On the very first page with the quote you reproduced, the article said:

It's the simplistic rejection of it that I'm arguing against, I think I've said many times (probably in many of the threads we've had on the subject) that the association can be simplistic. But "fgm is an african tradition, and other cultures have done it as well" is a simplistic rejection of the fact that it is justified by islam in these countries.

ESPECIALLY if the intent is to actually do something about these problems, the first step is understanding very clearly where they come from, and how exactly they relate to religion. And my major point: having a nuanced view is going to be a lot more effective in combating it it, not to mention you avoid unnecessarily pissing a lot of people off with factually and politically incorrect statements.

I mean, the nuanced and accurate view is the best. Agreed. And that's your view, which is why it annoyed you when I didn't make it clear enough that I was talking about the debate as a whole and not your views specifically. But that is what I came into to thread talking about remember.

If you see how damaging it is to the debate to over-generalize, you can see how bad it is to make simplistic statements in the opposite way--for one thing it kills the credibility of someone supporting the more nuanced view. If you try and separate fgm from islam completely, people who believe it is enshrined in the koran and done by all muslims will largely ignore you.

[al Roumi]

FGM is still present in some muslim communities in hinterland Malaysia though, oh wait, Malaysia is east african country

Thanks, I read the same in one of Sasaki's links. It was news to me. My understanding is still that it's not prevalant accross the Islamic world, but present in certain minorities?

It's the simplistic rejection of it that I'm arguing against, I think I've said many times (probably in many of the threads we've had on the subject) that the association can be simplistic. But "fgm is an african tradition, and other cultures have done it as well" is a simplistic rejection of the fact that it is justified by islam in these countries.

I mean, the nuanced and accurate view is the best. Agreed. And that's your view, which is why it annoyed you when I didn't make it clear enough that I was talking about the debate as a whole and not your views specifically. But that is what I came into to thread talking about remember.

If you see how damaging it is to the debate to over-generalize, you can see how bad it is to make simplistic statements in the opposite way--for one thing it kills the credibility of someone supporting the more nuanced view. If you try and separate fgm from islam completely, people who believe it is enshrined in the koran and done by all muslims will largely ignore you.

Well if you are trully interested in a nuanced view, the reality is that Islam is used by some to justify FGM and others to counter it -as is the case with the general treatment of women in Muslim cultures.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Well if you are trully interested in a nuanced view, the reality is that Islam is used by some to justify FGM and others to counter it -as is the case with the general treatment of women in Muslim cultures.

Yeah like it says in the links I posted.

[Crazed Rabbit]

As Lemur said, I think the gar bar plan is definitely the best response to this.

And congrats on fourteen thousand and one posts, Sasaki.

CR

[Sasaki Kojiro]

As Lemur said, I think the gar bar plan is definitely the best response to this.

Nah, that just seems like sniggering.

And congrats on fourteen thousand and one posts, Sasaki.

CR

[Fragony]

Owwww the Tariq Ramadan look/think-aliking culturally blackmailing site hijjacking honey-talking time-bomb that is the imam of the roflgotya-mosque who wants nothing but dialogue publishes some very weird stuff in Indonesia, it kinda doesn't really sound like dialogue, not at all.

taqiyyayayaya yessir

[Beskar]

Owwww the Tariq Ramadan look/think-aliking culturally blackmailing site hijjacking honey-talking time-bomb that is the imam of the roflgotya-mosque who wants nothing but dialogue publishes some very weird stuff in Indonesia, it kinda doesn't really sound like dialogue, not at all.

taqiyyayayaya yessir

I liked the posting style, though, it wasn't really constructive or productive.

[Tellos Athenaios]

It's a bit of a shock: one moment I'm reading a thread about elephants on LSD, the next I'm reading that. All on the same ORG. And it's 6:09 in the morning.

[Fragony]

I liked the posting style, though, it wasn't really constructive or productive.

No building a mosque named after Cordoba (very significant event in islamist ideoligy, more so than the fall of Constantinoble as Turks don't really count no arab bloodline) near ground zero is constructive.

This guy is not what he pretends to be, he's a hardliner practising taqiyya, which means no other than hiding your true convictions when it suits you. The muslim brotherhood changed it's strategy but the goal remains the same, jihad holy war.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Are they really spending $100 million on this thing? That should be considered more objectionable than the location by far. Surely they could put it to better use.

[Fragony]

Are they really spending $100 million on this thing? That should be considered more objectionable than the location by far. Surely they could put it to better use.

At least 99, 1 million comes from our development-aid budget which really meant for puppy-eyed bloated black bellies, naturally sanctioned by the labour party. But yeah maybe it would be better spend in Pakistan.

[Beskar]

Hey Fragony, just a quick question.

Which would you prefer?
Total Secularisation (Complete Seperation of State and Religion, No input from State or Religion in eachothers matters)
State-sponsered-Athiesm (Banning Churches, Removal of Religion Overtly.)

I am curious, since I know you have a low opinion of Religion anyway, which one you would take. I am currently falling under "Total Secularisation" myself, with some instances of Athiesm to combat the more aggressive intrusions (Like 'Intelligent Design'/Creationism), etc.