Islamic group to build mosque adjacent to ground zero

[Beskar]

Islamophobia is a word made up for the sole intent of quelling criticism of islam. If someone criticizes islam, he's an islamophobe. I wonder why no one ever talks about "christianophobes", or "judaismphobes"...

I think the popular term for the latter is "antisemite"...

Ser Clegana beat me to it, also, there are homophobes and other issues, so it isn't just islam at all.

Islamophobe experienced its main rise after 11/9. Especially due to the propaganda and war-mongering of serveral western nations. This has lead to an irrational hatred and fear of islam. So people are scared of a woman in a burka walking down the street, as she might be packing C4 underneath, etc.

It isn't to silence criticism, it is simply a real issue of people with serious issues.

[The Celtic Viking]

Yes, I see where you are going with this... What a good idea, persecute the lot to get at the awful fraction within their population.

Would you please tell me where I say we should persecute them?

What I'm saying is this: the quran teaches anti-semitism, and we shouldn't be surprised to see all the anti-semitic attacks that we are seeing from muslims today. More importantly, we shouldn't sweep them under the rug and pretend like these attacks have nothing to do with islam... like you seem so eager to do.

Oh, and since Hax says he wasn't responding to me, I'll just use your post as an example of how moderates are giving the extremists something to hide behind.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

This building seems similar in some ways, though less blatant. Rauf has latched the message he wishes to spread onto a big name event when it doesn't make sense to do so. I don't see the logic in using 9/11 to spread an extremism combating message. "Here, at the site of your greatest success, let me remind you why you shouldn't be extremists?".

Moreover, 9/11 is not a Muslim "achievement". It is Al-Qaida's achievement. It is deeply concerning that after 9 years of history and 13 pages of this godforsaken thread you can't appreciate that.

You're again making the leap that muslims=terrorists.

Well, reenk, do you see more what I was talking about? I say that I don't see how using 9/11 to combat extremism works. That is dismissed with the criticism that I am equating muslims to terrorists, and then I'm told that 9/11 is not a muslim achievement (he is "deeply concerned" that I can't appreciate that). Now see, when I think of an extremism combating message, I assume that the message is intended for extremists. You don't send an extremism combating message to non extremists do you? Xiahou and alh assume the message is intended for muslims...and then say that I am equating muslims with extremists. Xiahou is also worried about the regular muslims in nyc, and thinks that this is what the extremism combating message is about.

[The Celtic Viking]

Perhaps you should look up some definitions on what the term "islamophobia" is commonly* used for?

* and please do not start any semantic discussions as it is currently done with the term anti-semite - the common usage of a term is relevant.

I've bolded my point. Whenever someone criticizes islam, they're called an islamophobe. That's the common usage I've been seeing. I point to Beskar: "This has lead to an irrational hatred and fear of islam". Emphasis added.

Ser Clegana beat me to it, also, there are homophobes and other issues, so it isn't just islam at all.

Since when is homosexuality a religion?

So people are scared of a woman in a burka walking down the street, as she might be packing C4 underneath, etc.

If you ever meet someone who really thinks that, tell me about it, because I have never seen one. I must ask you though, do you know why these women wear burkas? If you do, you should share my feelings of revulsion every time I see them, if you value womens rights at all.

[al Roumi]

Well, reenk, do you see more what I was talking about? I say that I don't see how using 9/11 to combat extremism works. That is dismissed with the criticism that I am equating muslims to terrorists, and then I'm told that 9/11 is not a muslim achievement (he is "deeply concerned" that I can't appreciate that). Now see, when I think of an extremism combating message, I assume that the message is intended for extremists. You don't send an extremism combating message to non extremists do you? Xiahou and alh assume the message is intended for muslims...and then say that I am equating muslims with extremists. Xiahou is also worried about the regular muslims in nyc, and thinks that this is what the extremism combating message is about.

LOL, do you honestly suggest engaging in rational dialoguwe with Al-Qaida? That's a good one, but do yourself the favour of more than a cursory consideration of the practicalities and politics -never mind likelihood of positive outcomes.

Of course any anti-extremism engagement is going to be with non-extremists. The horse has quite literaly bolted if they are violent extremists. The debate here should be about the vast majority of Muslims and how to aid them to resist and address extremism.

[Ronin]

There is a difference between what you can do and what you should do. For instance, you can build a Catholic church next to a playground. Should you?" - John Oliver on the "Ground Zero Mosque" controversy

TDS nails it again :D

[Beskar]

I've bolded my point. Whenever someone criticizes islam, they're called an islamophobe. That's the common usage I've been seeing. I point to Beskar: "This has lead to an irrational hatred and fear of islam". Emphasis added.

Islamophobia is prejudice against Islam or Muslims.[1] The term seems to date back to the "late" 1980s,[2] but came into common usage after the September 11, 2001 attacks in the United States.[3] In 1997, the British Runnymede Trust defined Islamophobia as the "dread or hatred of Islam and therefore, to the fear and dislike of all Muslims,".

Professor Anne Sophie Roald writes that steps were taken toward official acceptance of the term in January 2001 at the "Stockholm International Forum on Combating Intolerance", where Islamophobia was recognized as a form of intolerance alongside Xenophobia and Antisemitism.[5]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamophobia

[HoreTore]

Punk kids? Punk kids?!

...

I'm speechless. Would you have said the same if it instead of muslims were neo-nazis shooting rockets and throwing pipebombs at jews?

No, because then it wouldn't have been a demonstration by the Blitz/Christinia groups. Hence no punk kids.

[The Celtic Viking]

In 1997, the British Runnymede Trust defined Islamophobia as the "dread or hatred of Islam and therefore, to the fear and dislike of all Muslims,".

That's exactly the problem: they're trying to make hatred of islam equal to hatred of muslims. They're trying to transform criticism of a religion into criticism of people. You don't see the same thing with any other religion (and there shouldn't be for any).

Since both Muslim and Jew both refer to the religion and to the people, in that strange interconnected way. So man from Saudia Arabia, Turkey, Iran, Iraq, Pakistan, etc who comes from an Islamic background is always called a Muslim.

Being a muslim means you're following the religion of islam. That is the definition of the word. Being a jew doesn't mean the same thing, which is why you'll find that the majority of jews are atheists, but no muslim is anything but an adherent of islam.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

LOL, do you honestly suggest engaging in rational dialoguwe with Al-Qaida? That's a good one, but do yourself the favour of more than a cursory consideration of the practicalities and politics -never mind likelihood of positive outcomes.

Who is talking about al-queda? Well, extremists is a vague word. But you don't need to send a message to the non-extremists (people without any radical beliefs). Because they don't have the radical beliefs.

Of course any anti-extremism engagement is going to be with non-extremists. The horse has quite literaly bolted if they are violent extremists. The debate here should be about the vast majority of Muslims and how to aid them to resist and address extremism.

You are acting as if there is al-queda, and regular muslims. You say that the al-queda can't be talked to and the vast majority of muslims need help "resisting" extremism. I disagree with that. You are skipping the group of people who have radical beliefs, but are not violent. They are the ones who need to targeted in the war of ideas.

Watch the 60 minutes video I posted a few pages back. That guy is doing just that. He travels around the world giving talks and holding seminars where he tries to talk people out of the belief (and show them how to talk others out of the belief) that america hates muslims, or that the 9/11 attacks were a conspiracy by the americans to give them an excuse to go to iraq and wipe out all the muslims there. He isn't building a $100 million dollar interfaith cultural center and hoping that people with radical beliefs stop by so he can convince them.

[The Celtic Viking]

No, because then it wouldn't have been a demonstration by the Blitz/Christinia groups. Hence no punk kids.

So the fact that these people are clearly shouting "long live Hamas" doesn't mean anything to you?

Oh, and just out of interest, what's your source for claiming that Blitz/Christinia has anything to do with this? I've searched for any source even mentioning them in relation to this, but no luck.

Then we have them doing the same thing two weeks earlier.

I guess here they are shouting "Allahu akbar" to make people think their motivation has something to do with islam, when in fact it's really just "punk kids"?

[Fragony]

Honestly, though I hate Islam as much as you do, what's the point of this video? Some looney is having a conference in some **** hole and talks to other looneys? Good for him.

Much less threatening than the constant attacks on secularity we have to face in Europe.

Posted it as an example nothing more. I am not as harsh as you on islam, they are welcome but not these loonies they are stirring up things here as well. Not so much here in the Netherlands but absolutely in the UK and Belgium.

[HoreTore]

So the fact that these people are clearly shouting "long live Hamas" doesn't mean anything to you?

Oh, and just out of interest, what's your source for claiming that Blitz/Christinia has anything to do with this? I've searched for any source even mentioning them in relation to this, but no luck.

Then we have them doing the same thing two weeks earlier.

I guess here they are shouting "Allahu akbar" to make people think their motivation has something to do with islam, when in fact it's really just "punk kids"?

I don't know about this particular one. But i assume this one is from the gaza war, and i attended the demonstrations that took place in Oslo.

And yes, I was one of the punk kids. And I am no fundie.

[Fragony]

This particular one is how they all go, angry muslims plus bored rich kids desperate for a cause means broken windows.

[Meneldil]

Ser Clegana beat me to it, also, there are homophobes and other issues, so it isn't just islam at all.

Islamophobe experienced its main rise after 11/9. Especially due to the propaganda and war-mongering of serveral western nations. This has lead to an irrational hatred and fear of islam. So people are scared of a woman in a burka walking down the street, as she might be packing C4 underneath, etc.

It isn't to silence criticism, it is simply a real issue of people with serious issues.

Gibberish. Islam has never been popular among westerners. It started long before 9/11. Things got worse after this event because the US and Europe suddenly realized they were hosting a bunch of snakes.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Islamophobia is a word made up for the sole intent of quelling criticism of islam. If someone criticizes islam, he's an islamophobe. I wonder why no one ever talks about "christianophobes", or "judaismphobes"...

You're looking for the link in the wrong place. Islamophobia and homophobia are the two best known 'phobias'. Why? Because they are both the favourites of the liberal left. The very idea of calling them a 'phobia' is clearly stupid and non-sensical, and is just meant to slander anyone that criticises Islam/homosexuality.

Because not liking something is INTOLERANT didn't you know, and you're not allowed to be intolerant nowadays. And yeah as Fragony pointed out it's just rich kids wanting a cause that go and join these Muslim demonstrators, and then these rich kids go on to be the champagne socialists that pass legistlation against hate speech because you're not allowed to not like people or their beliefs any more.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Gibberish. Islam has never been popular among westerners. It started long before 9/11. Things got worse after this event because the US and Europe suddenly realized they were hosting a bunch of snakes.

It's more complicated than just looking at Muslims though. Pakistani/Bangladeshi immigrants have tended to integrate very well, a lot are small business owners and vote Conservative etc.

Arabs don't seem to do as well though...

[HoreTore]

Because not liking something is INTOLERANT didn't you know, and you're not allowed to be intolerant nowadays. And yeah as Fragony pointed out it's just rich kids wanting a cause that go and join these Muslim demonstrators, and then these rich kids go on to be the champagne socialists that pass legistlation against hate speech because you're not allowed to not like people or their beliefs any more.

Wrong.

The gaza riots was started by the anti-war movement, as a counter-protest to the pro-war demonstration. No muslim organizations that I am aware of is listed as present at the counter-demonstration.

To say that the anti-war movement is made up of "rich kids wanting a cause" is both ignorant and highly flammable, something I would expect of frags, but not you, rhyfelwyr.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Wrong.

The gaza riots was started by the anti-war movement, as a counter-protest to the pro-war demonstration. No muslim organizations that I am aware of is listed as present at the counter-demonstration.

To say that the anti-war movement is made up of "rich kids wanting a cause" is both ignorant and highly flammable, something I would expect of frags, but not you, rhyfelwyr.

I still think there is a lot of truth in what I said. Maybe it is different in Norway, but here in the UK we have regular standoffs between the English/Scottish Defence Leages (largely islamophobes and football hooligans) that have regular standoffs with protestors that are composed entirely of Muslim organisations (extremists and moderate) and a group by the name of Unite Against Fascism (Labour's rent-a-mob that is organised very much around universities and, well, angry rich kids).

Something I've said before on these boards, is that I've always noticed a big difference in young people of middle-class that I see at Uni (not exactly rich kids but many are) and the young, working-class people I hang out with. At Uni they are all (or at least the vocal ones that protest and assault you with leaflets etc) very liberal and from the talk I hear even in classes they are pretty anti-Israel and pro-Islam/immigration etc. The people I hang out with though tend to be more in line with the BNP, even if not so extreme (except for the republicans of course).

Aside from the republicans I know (who hate the British in general), the only anti-war sentiment comes from the "bored rich kids". I know many people have real and fair concerns about the war and the treatment of Muslims in the UK etc, but bored rich kids still make up a large part of their ranks (especially with this Unite Against Fascism group). I'll readily admit though that with the groups on the other side (eg English Defence League) a lot of the young poor kids (which is what a lof of them are) are basically hooligans.

While I stand by what I said on the rich kids, I hope you at least know I am really not 'islamophobic'.

[Fragony]

Anti-war movementlol at least be honest and call it anti-Israel. The anti-warmovementlol is dead silent over conflicts that aren't 100% fashionable in the leftist church. Bored rich kids.

And islamphobe is a stupid word, nothing irrational about it, should be replaced with non-islamphile.

Here in Dutchland 'Islamphobia' replaced 'underbelly-feelings', outstayed it's welcome I suppose. But message is clear, if you don't agree with mamma duck there is something wrong with you. Multiculturalism is opium for the elite.

[Cute Wolf]

Hurr durr hax has muslim family he will convurt durr.

No, my father and his brothers didn't use to pray before they reached age fifty, ever. They weren't "mocked" at all.

They lived in Western world, and North African country that was de facto controlled heavily influenced by western world, now I kindly ask your family to start move in either Pakistan, Arab, Indonesia, Malaysia, Somalia, etc... or maybe you alone could start move in here, and when someone ask about your family, just said they are muslims but you are buddhist... well... uh, you don't understand Indonesian gossip, so that won't meant much for you.

Islamophobia is a word made up for the sole intent of quelling criticism of islam. If someone criticizes islam, he's an islamophobe. I wonder why no one ever talks about "christianophobes", or "judaismphobes"...

You must add "Atheismphobia", almost every country that have large percentage of muslim ban atheism, because most of those "muslim" are actually atheists.

Would you please tell me where I say we should persecute them?

What I'm saying is this: the quran teaches anti-semitism, and we shouldn't be surprised to see all the anti-semitic attacks that we are seeing from muslims today. More importantly, we shouldn't sweep them under the rug and pretend like these attacks have nothing to do with islam... like you seem so eager to do.

Oh, and since Hax says he wasn't responding to me, I'll just use your post as an example of how moderates are giving the extremists something to hide behind.

Pretty much true.

If you ever meet someone who really thinks that, tell me about it, because I have never seen one. I must ask you though, do you know why these women wear burkas? If you do, you should share my feelings of revulsion every time I see them, if you value womens rights at all.

Most women who worn Hijab here, actually hate it, they are often ridiculed to the point of intimmidation by some fanatics that said repeatedly about hell, hell, hell, and Alloh is angry with muslimah who don't adhere syariat law. And outside of that, there is some brain washed women who literally gossip every non hijabi women and spread bad news about them. That was commonplace in the university life.

As far as my concious observation goes, no women don their hijab voluntarily, at least in the beginning before they are brainwashed by their social religious group, they are often forced by their peer pressures, parents, or religious mentor.

That's exactly the problem: they're trying to make hatred of islam equal to hatred of muslims. They're trying to transform criticism of a religion into criticism of people. You don't see the same thing with any other religion (and there shouldn't be for any).


Being a muslim means you're following the religion of islam. That is the definition of the word. Being a jew doesn't mean the same thing, which is why you'll find that the majority of jews are atheists, but no muslim is anything but an adherent of islam.

well, I repeat my points, there is a lot of good muslims out of there, who drunk beer and ate pork, and generally seen quran as mere "spiritual guidance" to be taken metaphorically. These men are good muslims, who believe God's words are meant to be translated not in literal sense, and these men are the one who support democracy and equality here.

Gibberish. Islam has never been popular among westerners. It started long before 9/11. Things got worse after this event because the US and Europe suddenly realized they were hosting a bunch of snakes.

for worse, your bunch of snakes are actually some men who was thrown to junkyard by their parent country, as a starter, ONE OF YOUR PROMINENT "MODERATE MUSLIM CLERICS IN EUROPE" WAS ACTUALLY AN EX POLITICAL PRISONERS OF INDONESIA, BEFORE HE RUN TO EUROPE, HE PREACH AND LED CHURCH BURNING HERE!!! I ALLREADY SAID HE WAS AN INDONESIAN, YOU COULD GUESS WHO HE WAS... Frenchies

[HoreTore]

I still think there is a lot of truth in what I said. Maybe it is different in Norway, but here in the UK we have regular standoffs between the English/Scottish Defence Leages (largely islamophobes and football hooligans) that have regular standoffs with protestors that are composed entirely of Muslim organisations (extremists and moderate) and a group by the name of Unite Against Fascism (Labour's rent-a-mob that is organised very much around universities and, well, angry rich kids).

Something I've said before on these boards, is that I've always noticed a big difference in young people of middle-class that I see at Uni (not exactly rich kids but many are) and the young, working-class people I hang out with. At Uni they are all (or at least the vocal ones that protest and assault you with leaflets etc) very liberal and from the talk I hear even in classes they are pretty anti-Israel and pro-Islam/immigration etc. The people I hang out with though tend to be more in line with the BNP, even if not so extreme (except for the republicans of course).

Aside from the republicans I know (who hate the British in general), the only anti-war sentiment comes from the "bored rich kids". I know many people have real and fair concerns about the war and the treatment of Muslims in the UK etc, but bored rich kids still make up a large part of their ranks (especially with this Unite Against Fascism group). I'll readily admit though that with the groups on the other side (eg English Defence League) a lot of the young poor kids (which is what a lof of them are) are basically hooligans.

While I stand by what I said on the rich kids, I hope you at least know I am really not 'islamophobic'.

I am a working class kid myself and so are my friends, so....

[Fragony]

I am a working class kid myself and so are my friends, so....

So you live in Norway, comfortable bliss floating on oil. Where are you and your working class buddies when Turkey massacres Kurds, too busy cheering on the floittas MUHAHAHA Israel take that.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

I still think there is a lot of truth in what I said.

they are all (or at least the vocal ones that protest and assault you with leaflets etc) very liberal

The people I hang out with though tend to be more in line with the BNP,

but bored rich kids still make up a large part of their ranks

I am a working class kid myself and so are my friends, so....

You can't argue against a claimed tendency like Rhyf's with an example.

[The Celtic Viking]

I don't know about this particular one. But i assume this one is from the gaza war, and i attended the demonstrations that took place in Oslo.

And yes, I was one of the punk kids. And I am no fundie.

Err, both my videos are from demonstrations in Malmö. Did you even bother watching those videos?

Oh, and no... that one wasn't from the Gaza war, which you might almost think. It's Jews having a peaceful, pro-israeli, pro-peace demonstration, as is their constitutional right, and anti-semite muslims coming to crash the party with firework and thrown bottles.

[Fragony]

What does demonstrations in Oslo have to do with this? Both my videos are from demonstrations in Malmö. Did you even bother watching those videos?

Don't bother leftists can't see that video. Leftists need the world to spin their way, and if it doesn't they ignore that the earth spins at all or even shriek that it's flat. We call it the 'flat hand theory' over here, HOWDAREYOU *slap*

[The Celtic Viking]

You're looking for the link in the wrong place. Islamophobia and homophobia are the two best known 'phobias'. Why? Because they are both the favourites of the liberal left. The very idea of calling them a 'phobia' is clearly stupid and non-sensical, and is just meant to slander anyone that criticises Islam/homosexuality.

No, homophobia is a legitimate word, because there is no rational reason two men or two women having sex with eachother could scare you. It's as rational as someone worrying about heterosexual sex - it's nonsense.

Islam, however, is a religion, and thus a completely different subject. No criticism of any other religion has ever been branded a "phobia" before AFAIK, so not only is it unwarranted, it's so obviously fabricated I'd laugh if I was ignorant of the reason.

Because not liking something is INTOLERANT didn't you know, and you're not allowed to be intolerant nowadays.

Irritating, isn't it?

And yeah as Fragony pointed out it's just rich kids wanting a cause that go and join these Muslim demonstrators, and then these rich kids go on to be the champagne socialists that pass legistlation against hate speech because you're not allowed to not like people or their beliefs any more.

So you're saying they don't really believe what they're demonstrating about? I think that people who just wants a cause and picks the israel/palestine conflict wouldn't just start shooting rockets, throwing pipebombs, shouting "Hitler! Hitler! Hitler!", "allahu akbar" and call the jews "******* swine". I'm sorry about reiterating the rockets and all, but I really need to drive home that these are not peaceful protests I'm talking about at all, but acts of violence and anti-semitism. I wouldn't call that "people looking for a cause". I'd call that "violent anti-semites being violent anti-semites".

[Cute Wolf]

Not to mention anti Israeli sentiments run rampart on muslim dominated world.

[The Celtic Viking]

You must add "Atheismphobia", almost every country that have large percentage of muslim ban atheism, because most of those "muslim" are actually atheists.

I've never heard the word "atheismphobia" before, ever, but humouring the term, it still wouldn't be the same thing because atheism isn't a religion, it isn't an ideology, it isn't even a world view, as many seem to think. So not the same thing.

Most women who worn Hijab here, actually hate it, they are often ridiculed to the point of intimmidation by some fanatics that said repeatedly about hell, hell, hell, and Alloh is angry with muslimah who don't adhere syariat law. And outside of that, there is some brain washed women who literally gossip every non hijabi women and spread bad news about them. That was commonplace in the university life.

As far as my concious observation goes, no women don their hijab voluntarily, at least in the beginning before they are brainwashed by their social religious group, they are often forced by their peer pressures, parents, or religious mentor.

Yeah, I heartily agree with this. Thumbs up for saying it, because in these days, one must apparently only be against misogynistic devices like this if they're used against western women by western men. And then they turn around and call us racists. Funny.

well, I repeat my points, there is a lot of good muslims out of there, who drunk beer and ate pork, and generally seen quran as mere "spiritual guidance" to be taken metaphorically. These men are good muslims, who believe God's words are meant to be translated not in literal sense, and these men are the one who support democracy and equality here.

I've never claimed these people don't exist, so I hardly see how relevant this is as a response to me. But sure.

Not to mention anti Israeli sentiments run rampart on muslim dominated world.

I'd say the rampant anti-semitism there is more relevant. It's fine being anti-Israel, so long as the objections are actually against the state, and not the people.

[Meneldil]

for worse, your bunch of snakes are actually some men who was thrown to junkyard by their parent country, as a starter, ONE OF YOUR PROMINENT "MODERATE MUSLIM CLERICS IN EUROPE" WAS ACTUALLY AN EX POLITICAL PRISONERS OF INDONESIA, BEFORE HE RUN TO EUROPE, HE PREACH AND LED CHURCH BURNING HERE!!! I ALLREADY SAID HE WAS AN INDONESIAN, YOU COULD GUESS WHO HE WAS... Frenchies

Nicolas Sarkozy ?

It's more complicated than just looking at Muslims though. Pakistani/Bangladeshi immigrants have tended to integrate very well, a lot are small business owners and vote Conservative etc.

Arabs don't seem to do as well though...

We all know this. All muslims aren't nutjobs bent on destroying our way of life. But Beskar's idea that everything was alright with muslims living in Europe before 9/11 or even before the late 80's is - as I said - pure gibberish.

I'd like to remind him that muslim terrorist groups targeted France way before 9/11. I'd like to remind him that the whole arguing about the veil (since back then, nobody wore burkas and niqabs) started in the early 80's here. I'd like to remind him that racist attacks against muslims and north africans were common stuff in the 60's and the 70's. And I'd like to remind him that, back then, muslims generally were more assimilated and less militant than they are nowadays.

This whole "ISLAMOPHOBIA IS A TOOL OF WESTERN GOVERNMENTS" idea is laughable. Islamophobia was much more prevalent in the 60's/70's than it is nowadays. It is only rising again as a reaction to the increased militancy and outlawness of local muslims.