Re: Islamic group to build mosque adjacent to ground zero
Welcome to my nightmare, trying to make sense to lefties. Why don't you try to explain to these sweethearts how this mosk is percieved in the Islamic world, an ex-muslim's view might hold some more weight than the fantasies of a foaming rightwing nutjob such as myself.Originally Posted by Sonic
Re: Islamic group to build mosque adjacent to ground zero
So, just to understand this better - US muslims should not build a "mosque" (using this trem as everybody refers to it this way although it actually isn't one) because there are muslim extrements in Indonesia and muslims in Indonesia might also consider this to be a victory for Islam.
This certainly makes a lot of sense.
I actually thought it was commnon in the US (especially with regard to intrenal issues) to be more concerned with upholding the rights of its own citizens than about what some people in another country might think...
Re: Islamic group to build mosque adjacent to ground zero
Perhaps I'm expecting to much in being honest and open with you, either way you don't seem to read or understand what I write.
Er, no. As I said, the people I KNOW don't think like me, but are not ~?<>ing extremists, let alone terrorists.
Whatever. I don't pretend to know how an extremist or agitator thinks. If you'd care to enlighten me/us rather than posture as to your former rebeliousness, then that might be interesting. I'm only speaking from my experience and that of the people I KNOW, who are not Salafist and don't support AQ.
Re: Islamic group to build mosque adjacent to ground zero
So if I get this straight, this discussion lost all credibility because you know a few people
Last edited by Fragony; 08-27-2010 at 11:44.
Re: Islamic group to build mosque adjacent to ground zero
Perhaps more accurately: when you became more interested in winning an argument on teh internet than engaging in a sensible discussion.
Re: Islamic group to build mosque adjacent to ground zero
As Ser Clegane said, why exactly is the opinion of some terrorist so important to us all of a sudden?
If he deludes himself to think of this as a victory that doesn't make it a victory, if a neonazi claimed that Germany won WW2, would that make it true?
The discussion is even worse in light of what Lemur said, you could almost say the guy trolled you and you fell for it, Fragony, he held you for a fool and you jumped right into his trap, a much bigger victory than building some community center, he conquered your mind...
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
"Topic is tired and needs a nap." - Tosa Inu
Re: Islamic group to build mosque adjacent to ground zero
It's pretty clear where I stand, no radical Islam in Europe and apoligists be damned. Very sensible. You dismiss Sonic's input as youthfull rebellion, not quite so sensible. You didn't know most euro muslims are suni, you probably don't even know the difference between the various branches. You know a few people.
@ it isn't just the opinion of a terrorist it's a powerful political entity of which terrorism is a very small part, the political islam.
Last edited by Fragony; 08-27-2010 at 12:37.
Re: Islamic group to build mosque adjacent to ground zero
Sunni Islam covers everything from the most liberal to the most extreme forms of the religion. Only a very small (but rising) percentage of Euro Muslims are Salafists/Wahhabists, usually young, second-generation immigrants from an Arab background. And even then, only a fraction of Wahhabists are affiliated with extremist organisations.
At the end of the day politics is just trash compared to the Gospel.
Re: Islamic group to build mosque adjacent to ground zero
Another good one; if nothing else, the idea of a mosque two blocks away from the WTC site is generating plenty of political ads and (consequently) local TV/cable revenue. So it's kind of like a stimulus. A very small, very targeted stimulus. For local cable and broadcast. And nobody else.
-edit-
Report from a guy who actually reads the Islamist websites (not that I expect any fact-based reporting to have the slightest impact on this "debate"):
Meanwhile, the mosque has barely registered on the major jihadist forums which I frequent -- yesterday, on the leading al-Shamoukh forum, it was not mentioned in the headline of a single one of the first ten pages of posts (more than 500 in all). There have been a few threads, as Evan Kohlmann has claimed, but it's a fairly minor theme within the forum debates ("Burn a Quran Day" has actually had more traction than the NY mosque thus far, actually). Certainly no triumphalism about how they'll soon have a monument to victory, as you hear so often out there on the American lunatic fringe. I have no doubt that al-Qaeda and like-minded extremists will eventually use the anti-mosque movement in their propaganda, since it so perfectly fits their narrative of a West at war with Islam --- the very narrative which both the Bush administration and the Obama administration worked so hard to combat over the last few years. I suspect that the participants in the forums aren't talking about it much is that it simply confirms what they already believe about America. They'll use it, but don't see much to argue about.
That's the opposite of the Arab mainstream, which is vigorously arguing about what it means for the future of America's relationship with Muslims --- both in America and in the world. Where the anti-mosque movement and escalating anti-Islam rhetoric is really resonating is with the Arab mainstream --- that vast middle ground which had hoped that the election of Barack Obama would mark a real change from the Bush administration but have grown increasingly disappointed. The mosque issue has been covered heavily on Arab satellite TV stations such as al-Jazeera, and the images of angry Americans chanting slogans and waving signs against Islam have resonated much like the images of angry Arabs burning American flags and denouncing U.S. policy did with American viewers after 9/11. The recent public opinion surveys showing widespread hostility towards Islam among Americans have also gotten a lot of attention.
Again, see useful idiot. Screaming and protesting the fictional mosque at the Burlington Coat Factory building helps two groups of people: Islamic extremists who preach to the "narrative" and opportunist politicos in tight mid-term elections in the USA. Find me another group that stands to benefit. Please.
Last edited by Lemur; 08-27-2010 at 18:00.
Re: Islamic group to build mosque adjacent to ground zero
And suddenly the personal experience/opinion of one man counts, confusing then it does then it doesnt
Last edited by Fragony; 08-27-2010 at 19:42.
Re: Islamic group to build mosque adjacent to ground zero
I know that but Al_p didn't but knew it was bull anyway, forgot the arab name CW used but that is what sunni's call themselves.
Last edited by Fragony; 08-27-2010 at 19:50.
Re: Islamic group to build mosque adjacent to ground zero
they called themself "As Sunnah Wal Jamaah"....
My Projects : * Near East Total War * Nusantara Total War * Assyria Total War *
* Watch the mind-blowing game : My Little Ponies : The Mafia Game!!! *
Also known as SPIKE in TWC
.jpg "Meneldil's Avatar")
Re: Islamic group to build mosque adjacent to ground zero
Sorry for the one liner, but this deserves nothing but a 'lol'.
If refusing to marry a non-muslim and wearing a hijab doesn't make one a fundamentalist, I don't know what does...
Re: Islamic group to build mosque adjacent to ground zero
Well, it doesn't seem unlike the christians who strongly advise their children to marry other christians, maybe it makes them extremists but it certainly doesn't make them dangerous, in the christian case anyway.
"Topic is tired and needs a nap." - Tosa Inu
Re: Islamic group to build mosque adjacent to ground zero
Goes too far for meas well, that is just tradition, no need for integration they don't have to. A fundamentalist muslim rejects manmade law and wants to live under strict shariah law. That is still an opinion and perfectly fine with me, but when it becomes actively sabotaging the system and preaching hate we have a problem.
Re: Islamic group to build mosque adjacent to ground zero
Eh? So a Christian who refuses to marry a non-Christian and who wears modest clothes (long sleeves or something) is a fundamentalist, by your argument.
What was it again? Oh, yeah: lol.
Re: Islamic group to build mosque adjacent to ground zero
Oh, I know plenty of those. There are some which even go to churches on Sundays. :O
Days since the Apocalypse began
"We are living in space-age times but there's too many of us thinking with stone-age minds" | How to spot a Humanist
"Men of Quality do not fear Equality." | "Belief doesn't change facts. Facts, if you are reasonable, should change your beliefs."
Re: Islamic group to build mosque adjacent to ground zero
Yes, he is. Don't know where you got the idea I was more forgiving of christian nutjobs than of muslim ones. *shrugs*
Refusing to marry someone who's not following your religion makes you an idiot and an extremist. Period. That's without even taking into account the hijab.
Edit : And before one of you comes with up, yes, I'm a die hard atheist, and yes, I've dated religious girls.
Edit2 : And if you're comparing the hijab to "longue sleeves" than it's my turn to "lol" at you.
Last edited by Meneldil; 08-28-2010 at 08:58.
Re: Islamic group to build mosque adjacent to ground zero
I haven't really read too much of this thread since Frag started his rantings against the "lefties" and their conspiracy to turn the world into an Islamic superstate, but we have established at this point that even the title of this thread is incorrect, right? It isn't a Mosque, it's in a backstreet two blocks away from Ground Zero and it isn't even called Cordoba House any more.
Anyway, I'll be on my way now, I'll leave Frag to continue his wild conspiracy theories and his bizarre rantings.
"A lamb goes to the slaughter but a man, he knows when to walk away."
Re: Islamic group to build mosque adjacent to ground zero
Yeah it's more of an islamic six-flags with a mosk. And leftists are too clueless for conpiracies, too busy congratulating themselves on their superior ethical standards and clawing out the eyeballs of anybody questioning the indisputable fact that they are 100% correct.
Last edited by Fragony; 08-28-2010 at 14:00.
Re: Islamic group to build mosque adjacent to ground zero
"Leftists" meaning anyone who disagrees with you, correct?
Re: Islamic group to build mosque adjacent to ground zero
Nope that's my ammo, everybody who is against the roflgotya-mosk is a bigot no?
Re: Islamic group to build mosque adjacent to ground zero
What you consider to be extreme is relative, it's not very helpful that you've suddenly decided that following a dress code makes you an extremist, when everyone else considers an extremist to be someone that does something well, y'know, extreme... like flying a plane into a building or something.
As for not marrying outside your religion, I suspect its as largely a cultural thing as anything. I know a lot of people who don't bother going to church who still say you should never marry a Catholic because it wouldn't work out.
At the end of the day politics is just trash compared to the Gospel.
Re: Islamic group to build mosque adjacent to ground zero
Die hard atheist sounds like just another name for atheist extremist.
And if I had to choose between a christian extremist who preaches love and sin, is generally very nice and friendly but thinks women should only wear long skirts and an atheist who keeps calling others idiots and nutjobs, then I'd go with the christian for sure...
"Topic is tired and needs a nap." - Tosa Inu
Re: Islamic group to build mosque adjacent to ground zero
A Muslim Reformer on the Mosque. An excellent article by a muslim female NYU professor. She makes a lot of sense. Just what type of civic values will be taught at this site? Good question indeed.
So far, the imam has rebuffed accusations of insensitivity. Yet he made those very accusations about the Danish cartoons of Prophet Muhammad. In a February 2006 press release, Imam Rauf announced that he was "appalled" by the drawings. He called it "willful fomentation" and "gratuitous" to republish them throughout Europe. In the following weeks, almost no U.S. newspaper printed the caricatures.
Three years later, it is the imam who the majority of Americans believe is engaging in "willful fomentation." Yet his retinue has not publicly acknowledged that the feelings of these "appalled" Americans parallel how moderate Muslims such as Imam Rauf felt during the cartoon debacle.Anyone else like to hear the answers to these questions?That means setting aside bombast and asking the imam questions born of the highest American ideals: individual dignity and pluralism of ideas.
• Will the swimming pool at Park51 be segregated between men and women at any time of the day or night?
• May women lead congregational prayers any day of the week?
• Will Jews and Christians, fellow People of the Book, be able to use the prayer sanctuary for their services just as Muslims share prayer space with Christians and Jews in the Pentagon? (Spare me the technocratic argument that the Pentagon is a governmental, not private, building. Park51 may be private in the legal sense but is a public symbol par excellence.)
• What will be taught about homosexuals? About agnostics? About atheists? About apostasy?
• Where does one sign up for advance tickets to Salman Rushdie's lecture at Park51?
"He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." *Jim Elliot*
Re: Islamic group to build mosque adjacent to ground zero
No. US Muslims should not build this specific mosque because it is distasteful and offensive to many Americans, including many of those who lost loved one's in the 9/11 attacks - which were carried out by Islamic fundamentalists who share a similar world view as the Imam sponsoring the mosque. It's as simple as propriety, or a distinct lack there of.
The construction of hundreds of mosques around the country since the 9/11 attacks certainly discounts any 'civil rights' argument.
Yes.
Re: Islamic group to build mosque adjacent to ground zero
Well he praised the islamic priciples of Iran.
Re: Islamic group to build mosque adjacent to ground zero
Only thing I know from the comparison between this and the danish cartoons is that extremists on both side overreacted to something which wasn't even that extreme.
Days since the Apocalypse began
"We are living in space-age times but there's too many of us thinking with stone-age minds" | How to spot a Humanist
"Men of Quality do not fear Equality." | "Belief doesn't change facts. Facts, if you are reasonable, should change your beliefs."
Re: Islamic group to build mosque adjacent to ground zero
Meh, mr 'dawa on the rubbles of ground zero' apparently understood the sensitivities of the cartoons he was APPALED, but he really doesn't understand the grievances of 70% of the American population. Gutmensch knows he wants dialogue.
Last edited by Fragony; 08-29-2010 at 09:05.
Re: Islamic group to build mosque adjacent to ground zero
A dress code? The Hijab certainly isn't a dress code. It's a political tool, nothing else. It's got nothing to do with being modest. Quite the contrary actually, since the purpose is obviously to show the rest of the world your "islamtitude".
Well, we all know UK as a whole is still part of the third world on many aspects. Religious bickering being one of them.
My ''extremism'', if you want to call it that way, doesn't influence who I hang out with, who I date, how I live, what dress I wear, what I can eat or not. I don't try to enforce atheism onto other people, despite what Rhyfelwyr might think about the "OMG EVIL FRENCH SECULARISM".Die hard atheist sounds like just another name for atheist extremist.
Even though I loath Islam as a whole, I still hang out with muslims who do the ramadan. I get to put up with their tale stories while they get to put up with my facepalms when they talk about their religion.
On that we can agree. As long as the christian is willing to marry someone who doesn't share his faith. Which is unlikely in the first place...And if I had to choose between a christian extremist who preaches love and sin, is generally very nice and friendly but thinks women should only wear long skirts and an atheist who keeps calling others idiots and nutjobs, then I'd go with the christian for sure...
Last edited by Meneldil; 08-29-2010 at 11:27.
Posting Permissions
Bookmarks