Islamic group to build mosque adjacent to ground zero

[Don Corleone]

Would you settle for something from Breitbart.com?

From the Sydney Sun-Herald, in 2004:

In a move likely to cause controversy with church leaders, Imam Feisal said it was Christians who started mass attacks on civilians.

"The Islamic method of waging war is not to kill innocent civilians. But it was Christians in World War II who bombed civilians in Dresden and Hiroshima, neither of which were military targets."

Imam Feisal said the bombing in Madrid had made his message more urgent. He said there was an endless supply of angry young Muslim rebels prepared to die for their cause and there was no sign of the attacks ending unless there was a fundamental change in the world.

Imam Feisal, who argues for a Western style of Islam that promotes democracy and tolerance, said there could be little progress until the US acknowledged backing dictators and the US President gave an "America Culpa" speech to the Muslim world.

Emphasis mine: You want peace? You admit that you're to blame, then we'll talk...

And from an interview he gave Ed Bradley, on September 20th, 2001:

BRADLEY: Are — are — are you in any way suggesting that we in the United States deserved what happened?
Imam ABDUL RAUF: I wouldn’t say that the United States deserved what happened, but the United States policies were an accessory to the crime that happened.
BRADLEY: OK. You say that we’re an accessory?
Imam ABDUL RAUF: Yes.
BRADLEY: How?
Imam ABDUL RAUF: Because we have been an accessory to a lot of — of innocent lives dying in the world. In fact, it — in the most direct sense, Osama bin Laden is made in the USA.

[CountArach]

EDIT: Nevermind. Posting at 2am causes me to get confused.

[ajaxfetish]

Jon Stewart's take

Ajax

[Don Corleone]

While I always find Jon Stewart amusing and entertaining, you're not honestly submitting his monologue as evidentiary, I hope....

The whole thing with the NASA meatball morphing into the muslim crescent? That was Daily Show video editors, not Fox ones. He disclaims everything as "meant for entertainment purposes only", which is how I choose to allow him to enter debates like these.

[ajaxfetish]

While I always find Jon Stewart amusing and entertaining, you're not honestly submitting his monologue as evidentiary, I hope....

The whole thing with the NASA meatball morphing into the muslim crescent? That was Daily Show video editors, not Fox ones. He disclaims everything as "meant for entertainment purposes only", which is how I choose to allow him to enter debates like these.

Yes, I consider it humor and opinion, not evidence. Personally, whatever the appropriateness of the mosque location may be, I'm glad to live in a free country where Muslims, even though in the minority and not the best liked currently, can go on building their places of worship. I think this kind of thing is a good demonstration that we refuse to be terrorized.

Ajax

[Hax]

but hax, you're acting as if everyone who opposes the mosque is an islamaphobe. Every time you hear something like "mosque opposed", you turn sour, the atmosphere drops with lightening speed etc.

You may have misunderstood. I'm neither supporting nor opposing the construction of that mosque in particular. I just think we shouldn't regard the people opposing that mosque are allied with Osama bin Laden.

[Fragony]

You may have misunderstood. I'm neither supporting nor opposing the construction of that mosque in particular. I just think we shouldn't regard the people opposing that mosque are allied with Osama bin Laden.

Why would anyone even consider any consideration? If they honestly believe, which they don't, that this is a great way to improve relations, don't they get it all wrong

[Lemur]

And from an interview he gave Ed Bradley, on September 20th, 2001:

So the Imam believes (or believed, that interview is nine years old, and I'm not going to assume he's still all about that) that the atrocities of 9/11 were at least partially the result of "blowback." This was not a completely unheard-of opinion. Such violent lefties as Ron Paul voiced such perspectives publicly.

Look, I think the "blowback" theory is oversimplified, and I think that the folks who believe OBL was "made in the USA" are as wrong as a wrong person can be. But I do not think having that opinion is a game-ending disqualifier from all public discourse. Many of the factual elements of the "blowback" theory are correct. We have backed horrible dictators in the middle-east. We have encouraged political and social stasis. None of that is incorrect. Nevertheless, those who think that America brought 9/11 on ourselves are wrong.

So. Your quotes don't move me, or convince me that this Imam is a bad man. There are lots of people with whom I disagree whom I don't believe should be excluded from public life.

Islam and the west aren't compatible how much proof do you need, they are hostiles.

You do your argument no favors with this sort of sweeping generalization. Guys like OBL want a war of civilizations; useful idiots want to give it to him. I'd say the Imam is a much greater threat to OBL's philosophy than you, friend. You fit right into the Wahabbist narrative.

[Don Corleone]

So. Your quotes don't move me, or convince me that this Imam is a bad man. There are lots of people with whom I disagree whom I don't believe should be excluded from public life.

Hey, no fair using my Sith Lord tricks of mischaracterization of argument against me.

I don't think I ever said the Imam was necessarily a bad man. And I'm pretty damn sure I never said he should be excluded from public life.

He is building a mosque at the site of 9/11, and his justification is "I'm a tolerant inter-faith man of the west, trust me". I provided you with 2 examples where that was shown not to be the case, and therefore, his claims should not automatically get the benefit of the doubt.

And as I mentioned during my lunchbox epiphany, he of all people SHOULD have had the idea to make it an inter-faith center, not a conquerers mosque (which could arguably be dedicated to the 19 martyrs at any time, by a planned or unplanned successor).

[miotas]

He is building a mosque at the site of 9/11, and his justification is "I'm a tolerant inter-faith man of the west, trust me". I provided you with 2 examples where that was shown not to be the case, and therefore, his claims should not automatically get the benefit of the doubt.

His belief, nine years ago, that US military interference in the middle east may have contributed to them attacking you doesn't mean he is intollerant.

And as I mentioned during my lunchbox epiphany, he of all people SHOULD have had the idea to make it an inter-faith center, not a conquerers mosque (which could arguably be dedicated to the 19 martyrs at any time, by a planned or unplanned successor).

He is Islamic after all. He may be accepting of catholics, but that doesn't mean he takes communion. If he were to build a place of worship it would be a mosque. It's a community centre and the mosque is just one part of it.

[Don Corleone]

He is Islamic after all. He may be accepting of catholics, but that doesn't mean he takes communion. If he were to build a place of worship it would be a mosque. It's a community centre and the mosque is just one part of it.

I think you're being deliberately obtuse on this one, so there's probably not much for me to say in a rebuttal.

[miotas]

I think you're being deliberately obtuse on this one, so there's probably not much for me to say in a rebuttal.

You ask why doesn't he build a church or a synagogue? The answer is pretty simple: because he isn't a Christian or a Jew.

I'm not religious, so I won't go out of my way to build a place of worship, but that doesn't mean I hate religious people.

[Don Corleone]

You ask why doesn't he build a church or a synagogue? The answer is pretty simple: because he isn't a Christian or a Jew.

I'm not religious, so I won't go out of my way to build a place of worship, but that doesn't mean I hate religious people.

So there it is.... you agree with me that the construction of this mosque is more about the practice and advancement of Islam than it is what Imam Abdul Rauf himself said his goal was, that the mosque is not about spreading Islam, but spreading tolerance.

Thank you for ceding the point.

[Fragony]

You ask why doesn't he build a church or a synagogue? The answer is pretty simple: because he isn't a Christian or a Jew.

I'm not religious, so I won't go out of my way to build a place of worship, but that doesn't mean I hate religious people.

Lol even in Turkey it's pretty much impossible to build a church, fine with me but still. Or what is still staying/standing on Cyprus but yeah it's mutual respect.