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  1. #1
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Islamic group to build mosque adjacent to ground zero

    I don't like the idea of a mosque near Ground Zero. Neither I, nor the government of NYC however, have a right to stop this project unless and until it can be demonstrated that this construction would create a "clear and present danger" to the population of NYC. Urinating on my sensibilities does not constitute such a danger. I am, however, very much of a mind with Don C on this one. While they may have the right to do this, I do not believe that they should do this -- or at least not yet. I do not and cannot completely subverty my emotional response to this issue -- as ACIN would have me do -- nor do I want to do so. My emotions are every bit as much a part of me as are my logical thoughts on an issue.

    The larger concern, for me, is what to do with radical Islamists? Killing them is, at best, only a stop-gap answer, because the idea/set of interpretations that beget these fringers doesn't die with them.

    Moreover, why are there so many of these fringers as a percentage of their faith group. one source I read suggested that as many as 15% of the followers of the prophet subscribe to the more radical versions such as Wahabism. What gives? I am well aware that Christianity too has its dangerous extremists -- see this note -- but they are a far smaller percentage and are marginalized as the fruitbats they are. Why is Islam not able to accomplish the same?

    I would be far more sanguine if I had faith that THAT was the goal of this mosque's teachings. That would be a worthy project -- and would help us build a better future.
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  2. #2

    Default Re: Islamic group to build mosque adjacent to ground zero

    @Naysayers:

    I'm quite possibly naive, but to me this Mosque is all about a community which wants to upgrade -and in addition build a little “interfaith” extension, whatever that may be- into their complex: they have already provided the reason why. They want it and it is their property and their money and by the constitution of the USA and the laws and values of NYC also their right. It is up to those who do *not* want it to provide reasons so compelling as to why not that it should overturn what is otherwise an unquestionable right in the USA and NYC in particular.

    Such a powerful counter argument which explains your sentiment should be much stronger than “I find it in poor taste”. Or that it is maybe, if you do go by disputed and highly specific theological concepts really a big phallus. Or that it is if you look at history 500 years past or something similar. One reason why I think those why-nots are so flimsy is that an argument against such a right is in itself an argument against the codified beliefs of “freedom of religion”, “freedom of expression”, “freedom to do with your own property what the heck you want” and is pretty much incompatible with all of modern “Western” culture and thought, and that of the USA in particular. Arguments about complex theological concepts or taste or history are not at all that relevant, I think (and also somewhat devoid of real substance if you are going to make claims that Islam is inherently incompatible with Western society based on attributes that were/are part of same Western society for as long as there have been Westerners anyway).
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  3. #3

    Default Re: Islamic group to build mosque adjacent to ground zero

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh View Post
    I am, however, very much of a mind with Don C on this one. While they may have the right to do this, I do not believe that they should do this -- or at least not yet. I do not and cannot completely subverty my emotional response to this issue -- as ACIN would have me do -- nor do I want to do so. My emotions are every bit as much a part of me as are my logical thoughts on an issue.
    That's understandable. But keep in mind that putting aside emotions when regarding a decision that affects not just you but many others is not in any sense removing a part of yourself but allowing yourself to integrate with and think as the larger whole so as to make the best decision for that entity. That is whom this particular issue challenges, the whole of the nation and not any individual person.

    I use my emotions every day when I am determining my own path toward success or failure, but I would never compromise others by injecting my pure individuality in a situation that deals with punishment or lenience toward other human beings. That's how you get activist judges who rewrite years of precedent in one ruling whether it be conservative or liberal, that's how you get internment camps created on the fear and prejudice of a single group of people simply because we are at war with their distant cousins.

    I understand if you have been personally affected by 9/11. I don't know if I would be able to put aside emotion if I had the same experience as Don has. But that is why I said, there is too much emotion and ignorance in this issue for anyone to give a logical answer in the first place.


  4. #4
    The very model of a modern Moderator Xiahou's Avatar
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    Default Re: Islamic group to build mosque adjacent to ground zero

    To me, being opposed to this makes about as much sense as being outraged over a Catholic hospital being built 2 blocks from a school. I mean, how dare they build a monument to child molestation on the very site of the place where we send our children to learn?

    I find it a disturbing line of thinking. Imagine yourself a moderate American muslim and you're attending an overcrowded center in Tribeca and your organization wants to rehabilitate existing property for the use of your faith community. How do you react when you see people screaming that terrorists are building a monument celebrating 9/11 at Ground Zero?

    What are you saying about the rank and file muslim Americans with statements like this? How well does this fit the meme peddled by anti-American terrorists of an America that hates Islam? People should know that I have no qualms about taking unpopular positions- but this is senseless.
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  5. #5
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Islamic group to build mosque adjacent to ground zero

    The problem with reasonable people is that they expect others to be reasonable as well, they can't imagine that someone is hostile towards them.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Islamic group to build mosque adjacent to ground zero

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    The problem with reasonable people is that they expect others to be reasonable as well, they can't imagine that someone is hostile towards them.
    I disagree, if you are a reasonable person, you would understand that some people are unreasonable and like me would see where someone is coming from in terms of their hostility (AKA friend/family member died in 9/11).


  7. #7
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Islamic group to build mosque adjacent to ground zero

    Quote Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name View Post
    I disagree, if you are a reasonable person, you would understand that some people are unreasonable and like me would see where someone is coming from in terms of their hostility (AKA friend/family member died in 9/11).
    If you mean that I am being unreasonable, nope didn't lose anyone and I get along perfectly fine with the muslims. Like most people, that's the problem. Things aren't always what they appear to be, what you want this mosque to be is a good example of that. Why isn't anyone asking the obvious question 'if they understand that it is sensitive and could harm relations, why build it there it is counterproductive'. Maybe that is not why it's being build?

  8. #8

    Default Re: Islamic group to build mosque adjacent to ground zero

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    If you mean that I am being unreasonable, nope didn't lose anyone and I get along perfectly fine with the muslims. Like most people, that's the problem. Things aren't always what they appear to be, what you want this mosque to be is a good example of that. Why isn't anyone asking the obvious question 'if they understand that it is sensitive and could harm relations, why build it there it is counterproductive'. Maybe that is not why it's being build?
    I wasn't saying anything about you. I was just disagreeing on the ignorance of the "reasonable" man.


  9. #9

    Default Re: Islamic group to build mosque adjacent to ground zero

    Quote Originally Posted by Xiahou View Post
    To me, being opposed to this makes about as much sense as being outraged over a Catholic hospital being built 2 blocks from a school. I mean, how dare they build a monument to child molestation on the very site of the place where we send our children to learn?

    I find it a disturbing line of thinking. Imagine yourself a moderate American muslim and you're attending an overcrowded center in Tribeca and your organization wants to rehabilitate existing property for the use of your faith community. How do you react when you see people screaming that terrorists are building a monument celebrating 9/11 at Ground Zero?

    What are you saying about the rank and file muslim Americans with statements like this? How well does this fit the meme peddled by anti-American terrorists of an America that hates Islam? People should know that I have no qualms about taking unpopular positions- but this is senseless.
    Yeah, I agree. The problem here is that it's being "marketed" (for lack of a better word) as a ground zero mosque. That brings in a bunch of stuff about the victims families and what kind of political statement is being made--it associates it with the cultural relativist approach to the taliban that some people take.

  10. #10
    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Islamic group to build mosque adjacent to ground zero

    Quote Originally Posted by Sasaki Kojiro View Post
    Yeah, I agree. The problem here is that it's being "marketed" (for lack of a better word) as a ground zero mosque. That brings in a bunch of stuff about the victims families and what kind of political statement is being made--it associates it with the cultural relativist approach to the taliban that some people take.
    I don't think it is being marketed as such, I thought it was it was just Conservative Nutjobs going ape over the fact a Muslim prayerhouse wants to upgrade near Ground Zero?
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  11. #11

    Default Re: Islamic group to build mosque adjacent to ground zero

    Quote Originally Posted by Beskar View Post
    I don't think it is being marketed as such, I thought it was it was just Conservative Nutjobs going ape over the fact marketing it as a Muslim prayerhouse wants to upgrade near Ground Zero?

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