Islamic group to build mosque adjacent to ground zero

[Lemur]

Did you see the article from the Telegraph where Quillian labled Cordoba House "Islamist"?

Linky would be way cool.

[Fragony]

Linky cherrypicing so why do you want them, meanwhile a sound response from the people I supposedly condemn http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/Mi...303/story.html

Author doesn't know his religion very well, 'fitna' means 'cause' or 'struggle' in arab but message is clear, don't let him down.
Your reality doesn't exist, this is much worse than anything happening anywhere in Europe. With lightning speed you will lose everything. Your society doesn't have any ideological barricades, if you think you are being reasonable you are making a huge mistake.

[Lemur]

Linky cherrypicing so why do you want them

Well, when someone opens a post saying "did you see," it's natural to want to see.

As for the Ottowa Citizen essay, I think the authors are clearer on the definition of fitna than you. Further, while they disapprove of the mosque, they bring no hard evidence to the table. The contention that Feisal Abdul Rauf is an extremist/jihadist/salafist stands unfounded, especially given the people who actually know the main and say he is a moderate. The sources you have provided do nothing to support your vision of Rauf as a seditious invader.

As for how America will "lose everything," well, would you care to give a timeframe for that prediction? It's all very easy and fun to predict the end of civilization, but unless you're willing to give it a schedule it's just hot air.

[al Roumi]

Here's the economist's analysis:

Build that mosque: The campaign against the proposed Cordoba centre in New York is unjust and dangerous

And Lemur, were it not completely inappropriate to use a word like this in this context, i'd call you a crusader. Although I fear your heroic efforts may prove quixotic...

[PanzerJaeger]

Bonus question: Where were you hyperventilating alarmists when they built the Islamic prayer room in the other 9/11 target, the Pentagon?

I wonder if the Hassan incident has caused any critical reassessment of this. We've seen what happens when the military bends over to placate the Muslims. Real Americans get shot to death.

Here's the economist's analysis:

Build that mosque: The campaign against the proposed Cordoba centre in New York is unjust and dangerous

I don't appreciate the intellectual blackmail in which the authors are engaging. 'Build the Mosque or you'll radicalize your Muslims.' Our judgments on what is appropriate and what is not should not be held hostage to the ever-present threat of crazy Muslims waiting for a reason to radicalize.


Anyway, is there any truth to the accusation that this Imam Rauf refuses to acknowledge Hamas as a terrorist organization?

[Lemur]

Anyway, is there any truth to the accusation that this Imam Rauf refuses to acknowledge Hamas as a terrorist organization?

The damning quote that I have seen repeated from Rauf is that he talks about the Islamic Brotherhood doing charitable work. Which they have done, in addition to politics and terrorism. Likewise Hamas, but throw in that they're now the elected government of 1/2 of the Palestinians, which just makes life more complicated.

[PanzerJaeger]

The damning quote that I have seen repeated from Rauf is that he talks about the Islamic Brotherhood doing charitable work. Which they have done, in addition to politics and terrorism. Likewise Hamas, but throw in that they're now the elected government of 1/2 of the Palestinians, which just makes life more complicated.

Yea, I have read the same accusation in three different articles but without any quotes. Saying that they do charity work certainly suggests a relativist mindset, but is much different than ‘refusing to acknowledge Hamas as a terrorist group’.

[Fragony]

I wonder if the Hassan incident has caused any critical reassessment of this. We've seen what happens when the military bends over to placate the Muslims. Real Americans get shot to death.



I don't appreciate the intellectual blackmail in which the authors are engaging. 'Build the Mosque or you'll radicalize your Muslims.' Our judgments on what is appropriate and what is not should not be held hostage to the ever-present threat of crazy Muslims waiting for a reason to radicalize.


Anyway, is there any truth to the accusation that this Imam Rauf refuses to acknowledge Hamas as a terrorist organization?

Yes, among other things. What they say to you tends to be a little different than what they say abroad, I bet there was no 'hoisting the flag of islam over Manhattan'.

I still want to know why Dutch (naturally labour) minister Bert Koenders is using development aid money to fund this thing. Not that I don't know as he's from the 100% pro-islam labour party but still.

[Andres]

We've seen what happens when the military bends over to placate the Muslims. Real Americans get shot to death.

Are you saying that Muslims can't be "Real Americans" (tm) ?

Btw, what's a "Real American"? While you're at it, are there also fake Americans? If so, are they made from plastic?

[Fragony]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNWh7dzrbKs

Real Belgians? Always the sames. Real Belgians shoot at the police with kalashnikovs when they enter their enclaves?

[Incongruous]

Are you saying that Muslims can't be "Real Americans" (tm) ?

Btw, what's a "Real American"? While you're at it, are there also fake Americans? If so, are they made from plastic?

Christopher Hitchens is a fake American!

[Skullheadhq]

Are you saying that Muslims can't be "Real Americans" (tm) ?

Btw, what's a "Real American"? While you're at it, are there also fake Americans? If so, are they made from plastic?

[republican] Obama is a fake American!! [/republican]

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Are you saying that Muslims can't be "Real Americans" (tm) ?

Btw, what's a "Real American"? While you're at it, are there also fake Americans? If so, are they made from plastic?

Why don't you think about it, it looks like in your next few posts you didn't try to define it, but you know what "real" means surely.

It's not usually contrasted with "fake" when used this way. More like "there are x's, and then there are real x's". Like in sports when they say someone is a "real competitor" they aren't accusing the other players of only pretending to compete.

So you have americans, aka people who live here and have citizenship. And then real americans would be the set of americans who embody some features that make america distinct from other countries. Some kind of culture and beliefs thing. Same for real belgians. It's not hard to see that if someone moves to belgium and makes their wife wear a burkha etc, they aren't a real belgian. There's not much about them that you would describe as "belgian" right? Besides their citizenship.

You're also reading more than is said by pj:

I wonder if the Hassan incident has caused any critical reassessment of this. We've seen what happens when the military bends over to placate the Muslims. Real Americans get shot to death.

After the hassan shooting, the news story was that several people had noticed warning signs, but were not able to get enough done because of something like political correctness (whether this is true is a different discussion). Hassan was not a real american I think we can agree.

Adam Yahiye Gadahn, the American-born al-Qaeda spokesman, declared Hasan a "pioneer" whose actions at Fort Hood should be followed by other Muslims.

This guy isn't either...

But none of this is to say that the real americans who got shot couldn't have been muslims.

Probably pj believes the number of muslims who aren't real americans is larger than you believe, you could have focused on that instead of going for the rhetoric

[Seamus Fermanagh]

I wonder if the Hassan incident has caused any critical reassessment of this. We've seen what happens when the military bends over to placate the Muslims. Real Americans get shot to death....

Your post seems to imply that Muslims are not "Real Americans." I very SINCERELY hope that that was an accident of proximity in phrasing.

Failing to acknowlege that our current threats often stem from persons who are from an Islamic background and factor that into our response would be foolish. Marginalizing an entire religious tradition in a country that was, at least in part, FOUNDED on the ideal of religious freedom would be just as foolish.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Failing to acknowlege that our current threats often stem from persons who are from an Islamic background and factor that into our response would be foolish. Marginalizing an entire religious tradition in a country that was, at least in part, FOUNDED on the ideal of religious freedom would be just as foolish.

I think that's a false equivalency seamus. And criticism of islam is only based in part on threats of terrorism--most people have issues with how common anti-semitism is and how women are treated in islamic cultures. Not acknowledging issues like that is much worse than painting with too broad a brush--why would it be just as foolish? One is essentially a failure of statistics, the other is blindly complicit with human rights violations.

[PanzerJaeger]

Your post seems to imply that Muslims are not "Real Americans." I very SINCERELY hope that that was an accident of proximity in phrasing.

Failing to acknowlege that our current threats often stem from persons who are from an Islamic background and factor that into our response would be foolish. Marginalizing an entire religious tradition in a country that was, at least in part, FOUNDED on the ideal of religious freedom would be just as foolish.

As I said in post #206, a true Islamic lifestyle is incompatible with the American (and Western) way of life. That's not to say that there aren't millions of 'Muslims' in America that adhere to a highly diluted Islam-lite.

Major Hassan was not what I would consider a real American; the soldiers he shot to death were. He was, however, a real Muslim – adhering to the proscribed Qu’ranic teachings about cultural deviance.

[Fragony]

As for how America will "lose everything," well, would you care to give a timeframe for that prediction? It's all very easy and fun to predict the end of civilization, but unless you're willing to give it a schedule it's just hot air.

Fast at least, you cannot rely on your government to protect you from it either way, they are already in your goverment. Look at England and their labour party, completely infiltrated.

Brussels Belgium, but any European city really. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-inob20I_Y0 France at least now realises the crap they are in, state of war