Re: Proposition 8 declared unconstitutional
Is any of that not present in your friendships or the family that you have already? Would any of that not be present if there were not a 2 person limit to a marriage? Is any of that guaranteed in a 2 person marriage?Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger
Again, I ask - Why are we singling it out? Because we just have historically, why question it?
Last edited by ICantSpellDawg; 02-09-2012 at 02:14.
"That rifle hanging on the wall of the working-class flat or labourer's cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there."
-Eric "George Orwell" Blair
"If the policy of the government, upon vital questions affecting the whole people, is to be irrevocably fixed by decisions of the Supreme Court...the people will have ceased to be their own rulers, having to that extent practically resigned the government into the hands of that eminent tribunal."
(Lincoln's First Inaugural Address, 1861).
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
Re: Proposition 8 declared unconstitutional
How do you know? Why do you imply this between 2 best friends? What does "really married" mean?
"That rifle hanging on the wall of the working-class flat or labourer's cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there."
-Eric "George Orwell" Blair
"If the policy of the government, upon vital questions affecting the whole people, is to be irrevocably fixed by decisions of the Supreme Court...the people will have ceased to be their own rulers, having to that extent practically resigned the government into the hands of that eminent tribunal."
(Lincoln's First Inaugural Address, 1861).
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
Re: Proposition 8 declared unconstitutional
I know because it's a thought experiment and we defined it as such. It's really not hard to understand that gay people can get married in the same sense that straight people can.
Re: Proposition 8 declared unconstitutional
Except that they are missing important components, just like 2 friends are missing important components, just like some male/female couples are missing some components, etc. Plus, I never defined that 2 best friends would get married to game the system, where are you getting that? Do you not love your friends?
What is your definition of marriage and why does it exclude such an arrangement?
Anyway, I hope SCOTUS considers these things upon appeal, because they are coming sooner rather than later and I welcome them.
Last edited by ICantSpellDawg; 02-09-2012 at 02:32.
"That rifle hanging on the wall of the working-class flat or labourer's cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there."
-Eric "George Orwell" Blair
"If the policy of the government, upon vital questions affecting the whole people, is to be irrevocably fixed by decisions of the Supreme Court...the people will have ceased to be their own rulers, having to that extent practically resigned the government into the hands of that eminent tribunal."
(Lincoln's First Inaugural Address, 1861).
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
Re: Proposition 8 declared unconstitutional
I don't really understand. Presumably, there is a level of affection involved in a marriage that isn't present in friendships and family relationships.
Re: Proposition 8 declared unconstitutional
What is that? Is that what marriage is? Sexual affection? Is that any of the government's business?
"That rifle hanging on the wall of the working-class flat or labourer's cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there."
-Eric "George Orwell" Blair
"If the policy of the government, upon vital questions affecting the whole people, is to be irrevocably fixed by decisions of the Supreme Court...the people will have ceased to be their own rulers, having to that extent practically resigned the government into the hands of that eminent tribunal."
(Lincoln's First Inaugural Address, 1861).
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
Re: Proposition 8 declared unconstitutional
Marriage is what it is. You either believe it has a social value or not. You either think the government should be involved in it or not. What I don't understand is how you can hold such diametrically opposing views of the institution based on gender. When it is limited to a man and a woman it is a special and valuable social institution, but if that were to be expanded to two men or two women, then it should suddenly be thrown out. I am saying that what makes marriage special is not the gender of the involved parties. It is a null variable.
If you don't think government should be in the business of marriage, that is a completely legitimate position. If you've come to that position because you feel like gay marriage will somehow degrade the institution to the point of meaninglessness so it might as well be thrown out, I dispute that notion. It just seems like an intellectual temper tantrum.
Last edited by PanzerJaeger; 02-09-2012 at 03:52.
Re: Proposition 8 declared unconstitutional
And I'm asking you - what makes it special then, and why? You've given hollow and vague answers so far.
I thought it was special for a number of reasons, in particular the psycho-phyisical gender union and it's ability to raise children as reflected it the cultural-religious values of most people on the planet earth. Now that those have changed and we have started throwing those things out as a society, I wonder why we keep marriage around, but numbers suggest that we are not, in fact. Of the few people who are still getting married, more and more of them have a meaningless and fluid understanding of it based on Disney movies and the TV shows that peddle it as a business.
Over time I've realized that this society no longer values the institution and, because I value the religious institution even more, I would like to get the government out of all but the most pertinent and objective of our mutual businesses. I believe that marriage is a metaphysical union and, as such, the government has no right to be involved. Marriage is religion and, like Religion, it will be strengthened if the government gets the hell out of the business.
Last edited by ICantSpellDawg; 02-09-2012 at 03:47.
"That rifle hanging on the wall of the working-class flat or labourer's cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there."
-Eric "George Orwell" Blair
"If the policy of the government, upon vital questions affecting the whole people, is to be irrevocably fixed by decisions of the Supreme Court...the people will have ceased to be their own rulers, having to that extent practically resigned the government into the hands of that eminent tribunal."
(Lincoln's First Inaugural Address, 1861).
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
Re: Proposition 8 declared unconstitutional
The rights and privelges
There, but for the grace of God, goes John Bradford
My aim, then, was to whip the rebels, to humble their pride, to follow them to their inmost recesses, and make them fear and dread us. Fear is the beginning of wisdom.
I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation.
Re: Proposition 8 declared unconstitutional
But why give them to one type of human relationship over another in the first place?
"That rifle hanging on the wall of the working-class flat or labourer's cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there."
-Eric "George Orwell" Blair
"If the policy of the government, upon vital questions affecting the whole people, is to be irrevocably fixed by decisions of the Supreme Court...the people will have ceased to be their own rulers, having to that extent practically resigned the government into the hands of that eminent tribunal."
(Lincoln's First Inaugural Address, 1861).
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
Re: Proposition 8 declared unconstitutional
If you want to completely deconstruct the thing be my guest. I just feel its eaiser to extend these rights and privelges to this subset of people instead of doing mental gymnastics which can just as eaisly be applied to a loveless/sexless heterosexual couples.
There, but for the grace of God, goes John Bradford
My aim, then, was to whip the rebels, to humble their pride, to follow them to their inmost recesses, and make them fear and dread us. Fear is the beginning of wisdom.
I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation.
Re: Proposition 8 declared unconstitutional
Because questioning our eroded institutions is a bad idea, better to simply build on top of them. I believe that marriage is like religion and it has taken this national debate for me to realize that government has no business in it. Thank you, gay marriage debate.
But it is easier, isn't it? That makes it the right way to go.
Last edited by ICantSpellDawg; 02-09-2012 at 05:56.
"That rifle hanging on the wall of the working-class flat or labourer's cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there."
-Eric "George Orwell" Blair
"If the policy of the government, upon vital questions affecting the whole people, is to be irrevocably fixed by decisions of the Supreme Court...the people will have ceased to be their own rulers, having to that extent practically resigned the government into the hands of that eminent tribunal."
(Lincoln's First Inaugural Address, 1861).
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
Re: Proposition 8 declared unconstitutional
Environmentalists seems to be pessimistic about the survival of various species while those less environmentally inclined think that those species are pretty hardy. Doesn't seem strange that those most concerned about something would doubt its ability to survive.
Re: Proposition 8 declared unconstitutional
Exactly.
There, but for the grace of God, goes John Bradford
My aim, then, was to whip the rebels, to humble their pride, to follow them to their inmost recesses, and make them fear and dread us. Fear is the beginning of wisdom.
I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation.
Re: Proposition 8 declared unconstitutional
And I'm asking you what gender has to do with anything you just described. I'm not sure what a psycho-physical gender union is, but I do not think our cultural values surrounding marriage would change by making it simply a psycho-physical same-gender union. The value society places on the stability of long term relationships and their benefits in raising children would remain. Our understanding of relationships can evolve without the destruction of the whole institution.
If you are concerned about the meaningless and fluid nature of many contemporary marriages, that is a conversation for another thread. Conflating that problem with gay marriage confuses the issue.
Last edited by PanzerJaeger; 02-09-2012 at 04:14.
Re: Proposition 8 declared unconstitutional
That is not true. This issue is about why we should call a specific type of relationship special and then convey tax benefits onto it. A look at what the institution is - is important. It isn't a math equation of "equality" - it is an unequal institution itself, held above others. It reminds me of the fight over the crown being passed over to the eldest son -and everyone cawing about how "equal" it would be if it could also go to the eldest daughter... Why the eldest, and why the hell are people still wearing crowns and ruling other people in the first place? The fairness angle is nonsense.
I don't believe that a monogamous gay relationship is any more special than the aforementioned types of relationships and I think is opens up more questions about the failing institution of civil marriage than it solves. A grandparent aunt relationship is more special, a mother daughter relationship is more special, a best friendship is more special - to me and probably most of you. All relationships which can be and have been important in the rearing of children and the conveyance of affection. These are also usually lifelong commitments, unlike most marriages. What are we doing singling out gay couples? Why not open it up fully if we are opening it up at all. You guys have so far failed to distinguish why one relationship deserves benefits and the others don't. We've made good points that your closest loved ones should be allowed by your death bedside, why just the one you've been nailing? We all recognize that social security would be a benefit to your closest loved ones - why withhold that from the most important people in your life that you are not having sex with who could use it?
I know that you desperately want gay marriage to become legal, Panzer. I oppose it and am firm in my opposition - the arguments over the years have not convinced me because I view it as an undeserved social conveyance of benefit. I can see some agreeable point to eliminating the thing all together and keeping marriage a personal thing between 2 people, God and the society that they identify with. You get your equality and I don't have to keep calling these BS fair-weather shallow marriages, marriages - gay or straight. Win-win
Last edited by ICantSpellDawg; 02-09-2012 at 06:12.
"That rifle hanging on the wall of the working-class flat or labourer's cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there."
-Eric "George Orwell" Blair
"If the policy of the government, upon vital questions affecting the whole people, is to be irrevocably fixed by decisions of the Supreme Court...the people will have ceased to be their own rulers, having to that extent practically resigned the government into the hands of that eminent tribunal."
(Lincoln's First Inaugural Address, 1861).
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
Re: Proposition 8 declared unconstitutional
Omg, this hurts my head so much. Why are monogamous, love based relationships special? Because the statistics show that children raised in foster homes do poorly compared to those in family units consisting two parents (gender does not matter here, hence why we want same sex marriages). Children of single parents statistically do worse off as well. It's better for the kids, and hence better for the country if we put incentives on strong family units.
You get people like me and PJ in complete agreement on a subject and you wonder what kind of arguments would be brought up against us. These kind of arguments.
Re: Proposition 8 declared unconstitutional
What do the statistics of foster homes have to do with anything and why do they relate to monogamy?
"That rifle hanging on the wall of the working-class flat or labourer's cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there."
-Eric "George Orwell" Blair
"If the policy of the government, upon vital questions affecting the whole people, is to be irrevocably fixed by decisions of the Supreme Court...the people will have ceased to be their own rulers, having to that extent practically resigned the government into the hands of that eminent tribunal."
(Lincoln's First Inaugural Address, 1861).
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
Re: Proposition 8 declared unconstitutional
You are the one asking what the point of marriage is if gays can marry. You slap together words that make you sound crazy ("physiological-phycho" whatever) and say that because gays can marry, now suddenly your eyes are open to the pointlessness of marriage and how utterly pointless it is. Then you rant about other types of relationships and why we don't pride them, when the fact is we do put pride in our aunts and uncles and grandparents and all the relationships between our relatives. What we do not put pride in are relationships between two gay people who are not of the same family. You will not be convinced of anything because you refuse to let in anyone else to your special club and all your rambling is just poor justification for asking that a huge pillar of social stability be taken out lest we let "the others" be supported by it as well.
Re: Proposition 8 declared unconstitutional
More good news: Washington Legislature passed same-sex marriage, governor has pledged to sign bill. Only obstacle left is a possible public referendum if opponents get enough signatures.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/09/us...e.html?_r=1&hp
Re: Proposition 8 declared unconstitutional
I would submit that royal succession is not the best comparison to make to the debate over gay marriage. A more apt example would be the debate over interracial marriage, which revolved around many of the same (ultimately unfounded) criticisms. Why can't society again broaden the definition of a socially acceptable relationship without altering the definition of what a marriage entails?
I don't believe that a monogamous gay relationship is any more special than the aforementioned types of relationships and I think is opens up more questions about the failing institution of civil marriage than it solves. A grandparent aunt relationship is more special, a mother daughter relationship is more special, a best friendship is more special - to me and probably most of you. All relationships which can be and have been important in the rearing of children and the conveyance of affection. These are also usually lifelong commitments, unlike most marriages. What are we doing singling out gay couples? Why not open it up fully if we are opening it up at all. You guys have so far failed to distinguish why one relationship deserves benefits and the others don't. We've made good points that your closest loved ones should be allowed by your death bedside, why just the one you've been nailing? We all recognize that social security would be a benefit to your closest loved ones - why withhold that from the most important people in your life that you are not having sex with who could use it?
To be honest, I had a difficult time following that paragraph. I can only say that the whole argument seems so superficial. To me, what makes marriage special and socially desirable runs much deeper than things like skin color or genitalia.
As I said earlier, removing the state from marriage entirely is a completely reasonable position in my book. It is regrettable that you reached that conclusion over an apparent disgust with the idea of gay people getting married, though.I know that you desperately want gay marriage to become legal, Panzer. I oppose it and am firm in my opposition - the arguments over the years have not convinced me because I view it as an undeserved social conveyance of benefit. I can see some agreeable point to eliminating the thing all together and keeping marriage a personal thing between 2 people, God and the society that they identify with. You get your equality and I don't have to keep calling these BS fair-weather shallow marriages, marriages - gay or straight. Win-win
Re: Proposition 8 declared unconstitutional
Some/many/most homosexuals want state-recognized homosexual marriage so they can have the recognition and benefits associated with heterosexual marriage applied to their homosexual relationships. The way to achieve that is to convince enough people to support them to get marriage laws changed. Polling trends indicate that it's not going to be long before they get what they want. I'm fine with that- it's the democratic process.
What I'm not fine with is pushing the issue in the courts. There is no constitutional right to marry and it's not analogous to the civil rights movement.
"Don't believe everything you read online."
-Abraham Lincoln
Re: Proposition 8 declared unconstitutional
If they were concerned about the practical benefits of marriage they would have pushed for the civil unions which would have generated pretty much zero amount of controversy. IMHO homosexuals are involved in a pissing contest with the general public.
"And if the people raise a great howl against my barbarity and cruelty, I will answer that war is war and not popularity seeking. If they want peace, they and their relatives must stop the war." - William Tecumseh Sherman
“The market, like the Lord, helps those who help themselves. But unlike the Lord, the market does not forgive those who know not what they do.” - Warren Buffett
Re: Proposition 8 declared unconstitutional
I find this statement strange. In states that took steps to ban gay marriage, they also made sure to outlaw civil unions and same-sex contracts such as power of attorney. There was nothing subtle about it. If a lesbian wants to visit her long-term partner in the hospital, there is no way to do it in VA. So I'm curious to hear why you think civil unions would excite zero controversy; people who can't stomach gays don't appear to make such fine distinctions.
Every sane person I know supports this idea, but then, every sane person I know believes marijuana should be decriminalized and taxed. There are specific reasons elected officials won't touch these ideas, despite their self-evident sanity and prudence.
Re: Proposition 8 declared unconstitutional
Eh isnt a state recognised marraige a civil union in all cases regardless of gender or orientation.
They slew him with poison afaid to meet him with the steel
a gallant son of eireann was Owen Roe o'Neill.
Internet is a bad place for info Gaelic Cowboy
Re: Proposition 8 declared unconstitutional
Separate but equal, right?
Re: Proposition 8 declared unconstitutional
Precisely, but done right. Really separate and really equal.Separate but equal, right?
"And if the people raise a great howl against my barbarity and cruelty, I will answer that war is war and not popularity seeking. If they want peace, they and their relatives must stop the war." - William Tecumseh Sherman
“The market, like the Lord, helps those who help themselves. But unlike the Lord, the market does not forgive those who know not what they do.” - Warren Buffett
Don't worry guys, we will get it right this time. Just need to make sure that the government will act in perfect harmony between the two groups for all time.Man, I love it when we institutionalize the idea that our fellow Americans are different and should be treated differently.
Re: Proposition 8 declared unconstitutional
Well, they refuse to be treated the same. Any unmarried man (gay or straight) can marry any consenting unmarried woman (gay or straight) at any time. The law is exactly the same for everyone but it's not good enough for the homosexuals. They want the right to elope with their gender? Fine, but *I* don't want that right. So leave marriage alone and let them have civil unions.
"And if the people raise a great howl against my barbarity and cruelty, I will answer that war is war and not popularity seeking. If they want peace, they and their relatives must stop the war." - William Tecumseh Sherman
“The market, like the Lord, helps those who help themselves. But unlike the Lord, the market does not forgive those who know not what they do.” - Warren Buffett
Re: Proposition 8 declared unconstitutional
Then come the emotional appeals.... I'd love to see people argue homosexual marriage on the merits instead of resorting to racial comparisons.Separate but equal, right?
"Don't believe everything you read online."
-Abraham Lincoln
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