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  1. #1
    Dyslexic agnostic insomniac Senior Member Goofball's Avatar
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    Default Re: Proposition 8 declared unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger View Post
    I'm torn on this. While I agree with their sentiments, I share CR's concerns about their method. Prop 8 meant something - that a slight majority of Californians, buoyed specifically by blacks, are as ignorant as they are intolerant. Regardless, the people's will and the process should be respected.

    Activists should be focused on changing hearts and minds, not winning court battles. Although I don't really blame them for using the courts as every other pressure group in America does, including the NRA.
    Well said PJ. Good to see you're still here. You're right. This fight will never be completely won by the courts having to overturn hateful legislation time after time. The haters will still keep hating, no matter how many judges tell them they're idiots. Having said that, sometimes activists have no choice but to use the courts to protect against bigotry in the short-term. When a patient has a heart attack, the doctor tells them to change their lifestyle, eat healthier, and quit smoking. But he also performs surgery to make sure the patient lives to benefit from this healthier new lifestyle.
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    Member Centurion1's Avatar
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    Default Re: Proposition 8 declared unconstitutional

    The fight against gay marriage is a losing one. All you need to do is look around. Look at PJ an ardently conservative member or myself. We are both young and more importantly highly conservative. My generation feels radically differently regarding gay marriage compared to previous generations. However chruches should not be forced to marry gay couples.

  3. #3
    Member Megas Methuselah's Avatar
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    Default Re: Proposition 8 declared unconstitutional

    If you guys are ardent conservatives, then the world is moving forward to a better place.

  4. #4
    Hope guides me Senior Member Hosakawa Tito's Avatar
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    Default Re: Proposition 8 declared unconstitutional

    Here are some pertinent questions we were kicking around the office today:

    Is discrimination permissable if a majority of voters approve it?

    Can fundamental rights be submitted to a vote?

    Do domestic partnerships confer second-class status?

    Is the discrimination inherent in that second-class status harmful to gay men & women?

    Is there a compelling state interest in banning same-sex marriage?

    My conclusion: Prop 8 is just a moral view that there is "something wrong with same-sex couples." I don't believe that alone should be a permissable reason to legislate against same-sex marriage. Same-sex couples are identical to opposite-sex couples in their ability to form successful marital unions and provide a stable environment for raising children.
    "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." *Jim Elliot*

  5. #5
    Voluntary Suspension Voluntary Suspension Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Proposition 8 declared unconstitutional

    I dissagree, even when homosexuality was not frowned upon (say, Ancient Greece) marriage was ever reserved for man and woman, so that the rearing of children would have a legal basis and protection. Given that we acknowledge even today that (all things being equal) having both your naturlparents, together, is best the basic rational appears still to be valid.

    Homosexual couples need to involve a third person (and a doctor) to create children, such children have three "parents". This has reached a point now where two Lesbians in the UK are now allowed to omit the biological father from the Birth Certificate and put down both their own names. If you want to talk about a lack logic, there is an abundence in the increasingly complex and sometimes cruel and absurd arrangementsd used to accomodate the desire of modern homosexual couples to ape heterosexual ones.

    To summarise, marriage is about the children and their biological parents, ergo it cannot be extended to same-sex couples or any other irregular relationships. Even in polygamy there are multiple marriage contracts, not a group arrangement.
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  6. #6

    Default Re: Proposition 8 declared unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla View Post

    To summarise, marriage is about the children and their biological parents, ergo it cannot be extended to same-sex couples or any other irregular relationships. Even in polygamy there are multiple marriage contracts, not a group arrangement.
    Should barren heterosexual couples be allowed to marry?

  7. #7
    Voluntary Suspension Voluntary Suspension Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Proposition 8 declared unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger View Post
    Should barren heterosexual couples be allowed to marry?
    Yes, because many people who are declared "barren" subsequently concieve. Including the wife of our much-missed Tribesman.

    Also, there is a difference between a medical disability and a sexual preference; some homosexuals choose to marry in order to have children in a regularised environment. There is a Roman Catholic who did just that, he writes for the Daily Telegraph I believe.
    "If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."

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  8. #8

    Default Re: Proposition 8 declared unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla View Post
    Yes, because many people who are declared "barren" subsequently concieve. Including the wife of our much-missed Tribesman.

    Also, there is a difference between a medical disability and a sexual preference; some homosexuals choose to marry in order to have children in a regularised environment. There is a Roman Catholic who did just that, he writes for the Daily Telegraph I believe.
    And what about couples who choose not to have children? Should they be allowed to marry?

    Edit: Or women who have had hysterectomies? No chance for kids there.
    Last edited by PanzerJaeger; 08-07-2010 at 00:58.

  9. #9
    Voluntary Suspension Voluntary Suspension Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Proposition 8 declared unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger View Post
    And what about couples who choose not to have children? Should they be allowed to marry?
    They might choose differently later, and allowing them to marry seems to encourage that.

    Edit: Or women who have had hysterectomies? No chance for kids there.
    Physical disability might be a mitigation, but I'm inclined to say "no" actually.

    Of course, none of this prevents you from getting a Civil Partnership.
    "If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."

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  10. #10
    Ranting madman of the .org Senior Member Fly Shoot Champion, Helicopter Champion, Pedestrian Killer Champion, Sharpshooter Champion, NFS Underground Champion Rhyfelwyr's Avatar
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    Default Re: Proposition 8 declared unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla View Post
    Yes, because many people who are declared "barren" subsequently concieve. Including the wife of our much-missed Tribesman.
    I think I know where he is hiding out. Have you seen the Hotel Inspector show on Channel 5 recently?

    My youtube searches haven't provided anything, but there was one old eccentric hotel owner who kept saying "bollox" like Gordon Ramsay with his f-word...
    At the end of the day politics is just trash compared to the Gospel.

  11. #11
    Hope guides me Senior Member Hosakawa Tito's Avatar
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    Default Re: Proposition 8 declared unconstitutional

    So you're saying that procreation is a necessary goal of marriage and the traditional notions of marriage justify discrimination against same-sex marriages?

    I don't agree.

    Gender roles in opposite-sex marriages have changed dramatically over the last few decades. All marriages are now unions of equals. Are you saying that equality should be restricted to straight couples only?

    The 14th Admendment guarantees rights to equal protection and due process of law. Prop 8 violates those rights.
    "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." *Jim Elliot*

  12. #12
    Ranting madman of the .org Senior Member Fly Shoot Champion, Helicopter Champion, Pedestrian Killer Champion, Sharpshooter Champion, NFS Underground Champion Rhyfelwyr's Avatar
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    Default Re: Proposition 8 declared unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by Hosakawa Tito View Post
    The 14th Admendment guarantees rights to equal protection and due process of law. Prop 8 violates those rights.
    State-recognised marriage violates those rights.

    Once again, what of the asexuals?
    At the end of the day politics is just trash compared to the Gospel.

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