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Thread: Unions: Where did the U.S.A. go wrong?

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    Member Member jabarto's Avatar
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    Default Re: Unions: Where did the U.S.A. go wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yaseikhaan View Post
    In other news, just over 12% of US employees are in unions. Linky. And, lo and behold, we have not turned into Columbia. Imo, unions are only necessary for highly dangerous professions, such as mining. Otherwise, it seems they're pretty obsolete, given such a vast majority choose not to participate in them.
    You are aware that even suggesting that a work force be unioniized can be grounds for the company firing every last employee and shutting down the workpace, right? It's happened before with WalMart. So while there probably are people who don't want to unionize, that's realy a moot point compared to how hard it is to actually do so if you want to.

    Also, remember that unions exist to protect their employees from unfair practices, which are hardlyexclusive to dangerous professions. Anyone can be exploited, and everyone needs protection from it.

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    The very model of a modern Moderator Xiahou's Avatar
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    Default Re: Unions: Where did the U.S.A. go wrong?

    I'd say the fall of unions probably goes hand in hand with the growth of their incestuous relationship with government. The majority of union members are now government employees- the vicious circle that can lead to is dizzying.

    Of course, that's in addition to some of the things that Lemur touched on such as early unions achieving much of their goals via labor laws.
    Last edited by Xiahou; 08-10-2010 at 00:53.
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    Arena Senior Member Crazed Rabbit's Avatar
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    Default Re: Unions: Where did the U.S.A. go wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by jabarto View Post
    You are aware that even suggesting that a work force be unioniized can be grounds for the company firing every last employee and shutting down the workpace, right? It's happened before with WalMart.
    And WalMart, unlike the unionized auto makers, is not in danger of bankruptcy. Which means the employees there aren't getting laid off like at the auto plants.

    Also, remember that unions exist to protect their employees from unfair practices, which are hardlyexclusive to dangerous professions. Anyone can be exploited, and everyone needs protection from it.
    That's why we have laws. And people able to protect themselves.

    Unions are, in the US, a permanent solution to a temporary problem. They fought for laws stopping mistreatment and exploitation and they got them. And now what?

    It seems the big unions exist only to gouge more out of the business and expand membership. There's a very good reason they're shrinking in the private sector; people don't want to join them.

    Unions aren't being judged worthless by some evil vast right wing conspiracy, but by the workers of the United States.

    CR
    Ja Mata, Tosa.

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    Member Member jabarto's Avatar
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    Default Re: Unions: Where did the U.S.A. go wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit View Post
    And WalMart, unlike the unionized auto makers, is not in danger of bankruptcy. Which means the employees there aren't getting laid off like at the auto plants.



    That's why we have laws. And people able to protect themselves.

    Unions are, in the US, a permanent solution to a temporary problem. They fought for laws stopping mistreatment and exploitation and they got them. And now what?

    It seems the big unions exist only to gouge more out of the business and expand membership. There's a very good reason they're shrinking in the private sector; people don't want to join them.

    Unions aren't being judged worthless by some evil vast right wing conspiracy, but by the workers of the United States.

    CR
    Why do you think it is that people don't want to join unions?

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    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Unions: Where did the U.S.A. go wrong?

    You actually get fired from your job if you join a trade union, for example, if you are an Walmart employee. Many corporations and companies have this policy. In America, the corporations run government, not the people and thus the corporations want to pay their people as low as possible and in the worse conditions as possible, for maximum profitability.
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    The very model of a modern Moderator Xiahou's Avatar
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    Default Re: Unions: Where did the U.S.A. go wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by Beskar View Post
    You actually get fired from your job if you join a trade union, for example, if you are an Walmart employee. Many corporations and companies have this policy. In America, the corporations run government, not the people and thus the corporations want to pay their people as low as possible and in the worse conditions as possible, for maximum profitability.
    And if you're unlucky enough (as I am) to work at a union shop in a state without right to work laws, you can be fired for not joining a union. I guess that's alot better though.....
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    Arena Senior Member Crazed Rabbit's Avatar
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    Default Re: Unions: Where did the U.S.A. go wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by Beskar View Post
    You actually get fired from your job if you join a trade union, for example, if you are an Walmart employee. Many corporations and companies have this policy.
    Any proof of this? Thought not.

    In America, the corporations run government, not the people and thus the corporations want to pay their people as low as possible and in the worse conditions as possible, for maximum profitability.
    Oh really? So that's why the minimum wage was raised recently.

    Here's something else socialists and other economic illiterates don't seem to understand;
    Treating Employees Terribly and having awful working conditions IS NOT GOOD BUSINESS.

    Good grief, it's like you base how ideological opponents act on nightmarish strawman arguments.

    Why do you think it is that people don't want to join unions?
    Maybe they want to be promoted based on merit, and not have incompetent employees who've been there longer be promoted first. Maybe they don't want to be forced to donate to the political causes the union favors. Maybe they don't want incompetent and lazy employees to be protected by the union, which means they have to work harder to make up for it.

    Oh, and from the other thread; what are those 'conservative anti-union laws' passed that caused unions to decrease?

    CR
    Ja Mata, Tosa.

    The poorest man may in his cottage bid defiance to all the forces of the Crown. It may be frail; its roof may shake; the wind may blow through it; the storm may enter; the rain may enter; but the King of England cannot enter – all his force dares not cross the threshold of the ruined tenement! - William Pitt the Elder

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    The Usual Member Ice's Avatar
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    Default Re: Unions: Where did the U.S.A. go wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit View Post
    Treating Employees Terribly and having awful working conditions IS NOT GOOD BUSINESS.


    CR
    Yes...

    This is why I'm probably going to go with the accounting firm that offers a good/work life balance, but doesn't abuse you like the large heavy hitters. So true



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    Member Member jabarto's Avatar
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    Default Re: Unions: Where did the U.S.A. go wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit View Post
    Here's something else socialists and other economic illiterates don't seem to understand;
    Treating Employees Terribly and having awful working conditions IS NOT GOOD BUSINESS.
    This is so astonishingly naive it blows my mind. Corporations have killed to keep people from unionizing, for God's sake.

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    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Unions: Where did the U.S.A. go wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit View Post
    Any proof of this? Thought not.
    http://wakeupwalmart.com/facts/antiworker.html
    http://www.mindfully.org/Industry/20...ord16feb04.htm
    http://walmartwatch.com/blog/archive..._unionization/

    Then there is first hand experience from working at Walmart, where they even try to con people into using their own special 'lawfirm' to take up law suits against them (lol?) opposed to real representation from a Union, and other measures. Then there are experiences from others, including Americans which have relayed stories of this happening to them, and the fact is it pretty much 'public knowledge' says a lot.
    Last edited by Ser Clegane; 08-10-2010 at 05:55. Reason: personal attack
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    Member Member jabarto's Avatar
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    Default Re: Unions: Where did the U.S.A. go wrong?

    Oh, and CR? Remember when I asked you about your economics background?

    I did that because of statements like the one you just made. I did that because you clearly have no grasp of history.

    I mean, come on. If you didn't know that it was less than a century ago that companies were literally gunning people down in the streets rather than pay them a living wage in this very country, then you really haven't examined the history behind my argument at all.

    Mind you this says nothing of the third world, where things like this still happen on a regular basis. Look up what happened to Coca-Cola employess in Colombia when they tried to unionize; the only reason that doesn't happen here is because of the unions you want to dismantle.

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    Arena Senior Member Crazed Rabbit's Avatar
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    Default Re: Unions: Where did the U.S.A. go wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by Beskar View Post
    http://wakeupwalmart.com/facts/antiworker.html
    http://www.mindfully.org/Industry/20...ord16feb04.htm
    http://walmartwatch.com/blog/archive..._unionization/

    Then there is first hand experience from working at Walmart, where they even try to con people into using their own special 'lawfirm' to take up law suits against them (lol?) opposed to real representation from a Union, and other measures. Then there are experiences from others, including Americans which have relayed stories of this happening to them, and the fact is it pretty much 'public knowledge' says a lot.
    First hand experience? I didn't read anything there.

    You said;
    You actually get fired from your job if you join a trade union, for example, if you are an Walmart employee. Many corporations and companies have this policy.
    and did not provide any examples of that. The links showed only that WalMart closed one store after 51% of employees signed union cards - not even 51% of employees actually voting for a union - and ending a department after one place in Texas unionized. That's not being fired - that's the jobs not existing anymore. Walmart didn't hire anyone to take the place of the fired employees.

    Nor did you provide one iota of evidence indicating any other corporation in the US did anything like what you allege.

    removed; edited by Cleggy in original Thought not.
    Have you been able to provide any evidence of what you claim? Do you have any real idea of the union situation in the US? Or do you just get neat little talking points and links from your favorite socialist blogs, then run and parrot them without any comprehension or experience in what you're talking about? Have you ever been able to competently respond to my arguments? Or do you just ignore the facts that invalidate your farcical arguments?

    I did that because of statements like the one you just made. I did that because you clearly have no grasp of history.
    You have no grasp of the debate.

    Did I say business did not act cruelly 100 years ago?

    This is so astonishingly naive it blows my mind. Corporations have killed to keep people from unionizing, for God's sake.
    Do you think whatever a company does is good business? Companies are made of people, and can be just as stupid as them. Just because a company has done something DOES NOT MEAN IT'S SMART.

    Maybe this is the socialists problem. They see a company be immoral, and they assume that what they do is more profitable, so they blame the evils of capitalism for incentivizing companies to do it instead of the human stupidity of the companies.

    I mean, come on. If you didn't know that it was less than a century ago that companies were literally gunning people down in the streets rather than pay them a living wage in this very country, then you really haven't examined the history behind my argument at all.
    I never said anything that contradicts this. Perhaps you should understand what I'm saying. Yes, companies were cruel, in terms of conditions, wages, and responses to strikes. THAT STILL DOESN'T MAKE IT GOOD BUSINESS.

    Look at how Ford began paying $5 a day to employees, an unheard-of high wage at the time, and became more profitable.

    And if you want to talk about what companies did 100 years ago, you should remember that unions aren't needed now for the reasons they were then.

    CR
    Last edited by Seamus Fermanagh; 08-13-2010 at 05:38.
    Ja Mata, Tosa.

    The poorest man may in his cottage bid defiance to all the forces of the Crown. It may be frail; its roof may shake; the wind may blow through it; the storm may enter; the rain may enter; but the King of England cannot enter – all his force dares not cross the threshold of the ruined tenement! - William Pitt the Elder

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