Unions: Where did the U.S.A. go wrong?

[a completely inoffensive name]

No, you just want us to equalize outcomes by law. Good luck with that.

That seems like a baseless accusation. Support that please. (I'm just trying to absorb as many view points here since I've never actually been in a union).

[Seamus Fermanagh]

That seems like a baseless accusation. Support that please. (I'm just trying to absorb as many view points here since I've never actually been in a union).

Very well.

Prima facie, Beskar's point seems innocuous enough. Legislate to force companies to pay a "fair wage" akin to "fair trade."

He doesn't define "fair wage." Will he legislate to have workers payed a "living wage" in all jobs? Will he slap a tariff on foreign goods that are produced by companies with significantly lower wages in order to "even the playing field?"

EDIT: Later discussion allowed Beskar to clarify his point.

He then goes on to suggest that, as other parts of the world develop, these salary disparities will even themselves out. This is more of a "radiant future" state concept. Nothing in human history suggests that such a parity is in the offing or even likely.

EDIT: A universal minimum wage would be simply a soley a tool for wealth transfer. FORCE developed economies to pay much more for a given good or service so as to transfer wealth to the underdeveloped. The basic premise is that only equality of outcome is a worthwhile goal.

Taken together, he's advocating the classic mantra of "have the government decide what's fair and enforce it." However nice the intention, this sort of recipe never seems to work out.

I prefer the market as free and open as possible, with a minimum of regulations to prevent fraud and to promote public health and safety. NOT leaving the rest to sort itself out is likely to cause more problems than it solves.

[Xiahou]

This seems relevant to the thread:
L.A. teacher's union pitches a fit because the LA Times published a report on the effectiveness scores of teachers
They're public employees- being paid by the tax payer. But heavens forbid that they might be accountable to... anyone.

As I've said before, the fact that the majority of union employees are government employees is insane.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Testing is an awful way to measure teachers. Good scores don't mean good teacher. They mean "teacher who sold out and did jack all but teach to the test". And it's the teachers who know they aren't that good that'll do that.

The focus on teacher accountability is hamstringing education reform. Lazy kids and lazy parents. If they want to reform education they should assassinate miley cyrus and cancel american idol.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Testing is an awful way to measure teachers. Good scores don't mean good teacher. They mean "teacher who sold out and did jack all but teach to the test". And it's the teachers who know they aren't that good that'll do that.

The focus on teacher accountability is hamstringing education reform. Lazy kids and lazy parents. If they want to reform education they should assassinate miley cyrus and cancel american idol.

100% correct. My AP Physics teacher was the best teacher I had in high school, and because his classes were two AP Physics and three general 9th grade science (AKA slack offs and dead on arrivals) I'm sure the scores would have severely underrepresented his ability to teach.

[Xiahou]

Testing is an awful way to measure teachers. Good scores don't mean good teacher. They mean "teacher who sold out and did jack all but teach to the test". And it's the teachers who know they aren't that good that'll do that.

The focus on teacher accountability is hamstringing education reform. Lazy kids and lazy parents. If they want to reform education they should assassinate miley cyrus and cancel american idol.

So you didn't even click on the link did you? Thanks for playing.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

After a single year with teachers who ranked in the top 10% in effectiveness, students scored an average of 17 percentile points higher in English and 25 points higher in math than students whose teachers ranked in the bottom 10%. Students often backslid significantly in the classrooms of ineffective teachers, and thousands of students in the study had two or more ineffective teachers in a row.

The district has had the ability to analyze the differences among teachers for years but opted not to do so, in large part because of anticipated union resistance, The Times found.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

I did read it Xiahou. But "effective" teachers are defined as teachers that get them to score better on the test. aka teaching to the test.

Also, I took one of these tests. It was terrible.

Many schools have it set up so that teachers with seniority have the pull to get the smartest kids in their class.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

I did read it Xiahou. But "effective" teachers are defined as teachers that get them to score better on the test. aka teaching to the test.

Also, I took one of these tests. It was terrible.

Many schools have it set up so that teachers with seniority have the pull to get the smartest kids in their class.

Take education out of the government's hands entirely. Have parents purchase their children's education. Provide subsidies to those families who are truly destitute in a welfare/wic fashion. Might even wish to cease the mandatory education requirement -- since it is impossible to teach someone who is unwilling to learn anyway. You either see the need yourself, wish to please/fear your parents enough to do as told, or you have already learned that nobody can "make" you learn unless they are willing to physically punish you for not doing so -- NONE of these conditions require "mandatory" education and "mandatory" education wastes resources on those who have already decided they're done with learning.