V&V OOC/Signup Thread I

[_Tristan_]

I do agree that I may be exploiting a loophole but there's also no guarantee I can effectively win that siege... My army is undermanned and a siege situation makes me lose any advantage I might have in using my cavalry...

As to the siege proper, Milan is a great city and it doesn't seem too farfetched to imagine one could squeeze a small force (under the same colours and talking the same language) past the besiegers and take the prize under their nose...

Plus, it makes for an interesting IC situation, I think...

But I'm willing to wait on Cecil's ruling, either way

[phonicsmonkey]

Yes that's how I'd tried to picture it but it still didn't quite sit right with me. I think Cecil's of the view that the rules don't cover this situation but that we should fix it at the next Diet, which doesn't really help me here. So I thought I'd post here about it and see what other players think. I'm not trying to make a big OOC situation out of it though, so if everyone just wants to get on with the game I'm ok with that..

[Zim]

Maybe if Lothar does push through with the siege the Prinz should have a chance to respond? For instance, by declaring war and continuing the siege against the town's new masters?

[Cecil XIX]

The only way I can see Lothar and Leopold responding to each other is by fighting each other. That requires a declaration of war. As long as one player declares war publically or in a PM to me before Milan is taken, then it would be resolved in a PvP battle. As the rules stand right now, both sides have equal claim to assaulting Milan. It's regretable that this loophole in the rule exists, but it's not something that can be changed right now.

[Zim]

Of course, settlements go to the Kaiser anyway, so they'd be fighting over how to achieve the same result.

[The Celtic Viking]

I just noticed that the town militia in Magdeburg is listed as one of the Kaiser's units. As I understood things, they were a part of the remnants from... err, what's his name... TheFlax's first guy's army, together with the spear militia that are listed as mine.

[Zim]

The Reichsmarshall no doubt thanks Lothar for his 4317 florin contribution.

I wouldn't go so far as to say "one rule". After all, the Emperor now owns Genoa and Milan. Lothar gets no money or recruitment from them unless he's been awarded the provinces.

P.S. All hail the Emperor. Feel free to give both of those provinces to Elberhard, if you wish.

Save is back... Took longer than I thought but I had to fight two battles in a row

Milan has fallen to the forces of Provence... Northern Italy is unified under one rule. (No men from Prinz Leopold's army were used or harmed in the assault... They joined the battle as reinforcements but as I had control over them I let them stand by the sideline). Only 6 men of Prinz Lothar's army have been lost in the assault.

8635 florins were discovered in the merchant council coffers and added to the Principality's treasury in Genoa. A further ransom of 300 fl. was rejected.

Genoa has also been freed of the Venetian threat though at a greater cost. A ransom of some 1900 fl. was rejected by the Venetians. Genoa has gained the named of "Crown of Swords" for it is now crowned by two heroic victory markers...

Need to do some editing on pics and I'll be sure to post a few here and do a battle report this time around, though it will have to wait until tomorrow at the earliest.

[_Tristan_]

Sorry, but the Emperor still needs to assert his authority on Lothar's cities and Lothar won't relinquish any florins to the Marschall... Would you pay for armies that might march against you next season ?

You cannot make a man an outlaw and expect him to respect those same laws...

Not a penny was given to the Reich from the sack of Genoa and neither will a penny be given from the sack of Milan... Lothar might be willing to negotiate a "donation" to the Reich's treasury as a sign of goodwill but nothing more...

But let's rather discuss this IC at the Tournament maybe... Guy is always available for some debate on the state of the Reich...

[Zim]

You can't act like an outlaw by ignoring the rules and then take advantage of being a normal player to steal a city from under the nose of another player.

Sorry, but the Emperor still needs to assert his authority on Lothar's cities and Lothar won't relinquish any florins to the Marschall... Would you pay for armies that might march against you next season ?

You cannot make a man an outlaw and expect him to respect those same laws...

Not a penny was given to the Reich from the sack of Genoa and neither will a penny be given from the sack of Milan... Lothar might be willing to negotiate a "donation" to the Reich's treasury as a sign of goodwill but nothing more...

But let's rather discuss this IC at the Tournament maybe... Guy is always available for some debate on the state of the Reich...

[_Tristan_]

A bit of a grey area... I'm still an Elector of the Reich (though banned from the Diet) but I wonder how the Kaiser could extend his authority on Genoa, Milan or Marseille without recourse to force of arms... Same goes for the sacking or ransom money...

It may become a casus belli but until then I think Lothar can get away with it (though I may be proven wrong by Cecil...)

As to the assault on Milan, Cecil himself conceded that it was possible though a loophole in the rules.

Anyway, I don't want to hurt anybody's feelings by acting like this... I'm rather trying to create a tense IC situation which at one point will bring one side or the other to concessions in order to make progress...

[Zim]

Then I propose pausing the game for a bit until Cecil weighs in.

Just this turn PhonicsMonkey is told he can't stop you taking a settlement from him since you're a normal elector, then you break multiple rules with no consequence. This isn't about feelings but breaking forum game rules, something I have a responsibility now to be involved in. If the rules of a game are enforced inconsistently in a game like this then we can't really play a game at all (at least not while any player is willing to take advantage). If some rules are IC and some OOC there should be more distinction so we know which ones.

[_Tristan_]

I'm fine with this of course and will follow whatever course is decided by the GM.

I do not intend to break any rules though I'm surely trying to take advantage of a loophole... To me, it makes sense IC... And from the few contacts I had with Cecil, I thought I had some kind of green light on this...

I stand corrected if that wasn't the case.

[Zim]

It's just frustrating to see one player hurt by being told he has to go by certain rules and another helped repeatedly by ignoring them. It's not at all clear which rules I need to concern myself with as a player.

[phonicsmonkey]

I agree with Zim that this situation is unfair - I can't stop Zirn from taking Milan but then he doesn't have to give any money to the Marshall? That stinks. I think I should have had an opportunity to prevent Zirn from assaulting Milan unless he was willing to declare war on me first. After all I was besieging the city - if Milanese troops can't get in or out without fighting me then surely I can stop a small force of cavalry!

And if Zirn is allowed to take settlements (by the Edict which we passed in the Diet) then he should have to pony up for the Marshall as per the game rules that we just established.

There's one thing for there to be a grey area and another for someone to exploit it so drastically to get an advantage over other players. After all, at any time Zirn has had the option to normalise his relations with the Reich (by swearing the oath) and thereby gain access to sacking florins, the ability to own settlements etc.

[The Celtic Viking]

I'm siding with Tristan on this. These tax rules are IC and it's not at all inconceivable how Lothar could refuse to pay them. He should expect some IC consequences, though.

As for taking a province for himself like that, well, if that's not a casus belli, then I'll never see one.

[_Tristan_]

I hear your arguments and see where you're both (Zim and Phonics) coming from... I don't see where I get such an "unfair" advantage... Everything Lothar owns has been bought on his own money, through his victories... He's got no access to the Reich's funds, recruitment capabilities, nor anything else... I have/he has to fend for himself with the always impending risk of being declared war upon, something which would bring him down quite quickly, I think...

I do agree that the Milan situation might seem a little (very much ?) cheesy but it is permissible under the rules... and could be justified IC (what's to prevent a small force to slip past the besiegers under the cover of night, for example ?)

I also agree that according to the rules Zirn should not be considered ruler of either Genoa nor Milan and that half his earnings should go to the Reich, but it is hardly justifiable IC. Unless Leopold steps in and declares war (though I think it is a prerogative of the Kaiser but I may be wrong on this), there is no IC reason for Lothar to recognize Imperial authority on these matters and no reasonable IC means to enforce it...

As I said earlier, I acted with what I thought was Cecil's go-ahead, I'm willing to amend if I misunderstood his words/his intentions...

[phonicsmonkey]

I just think he should have had to go through me to get to the city.

We should wind back to before he assaulted the city and he should have to declare war on me if he wants to take it. If I'm besieging it then no armies get through without my say-so. You won't defeat my army in a PvP with only six losses.

Then we don't have any issue with taxes etc.

[Zim]

But if we're going that route it's hardly justifiable IC how he could not only assault Milan (and you played the battle so you know well no "sneaking" was not involved.) and then sack and leave it all under the Prinz's nose. You can't have it both ways.

I also agree that according to the rules Zirn should not be considered ruler of either Genoa nor Milan and that half his earnings should go to the Reich, but it is hardly justifiable IC. Unless Leopold steps in and declares war (though I think it is a prerogative of the Kaiser but I may be wrong on this), there is no IC reason for Lothar to recognize Imperial authority on these matters and no reasonable IC means to enforce it...

As I said earlier, I acted with what I thought was Cecil's go-ahead, I'm willing to amend if I misunderstood his words/his intentions...

[_Tristan_]

May I just add also that though taking the save earlier went in my favour this time, the situation could very well have been reversed had I accessed the save before Phonics on turn 31 ? Where would we be then ?

If it is just a question of who grabs the save first...

[phonicsmonkey]

May I just add also that though taking the save earlier went in my favour this time, the situation could very well have been reversed had I accessed the save before Phonics on turn 31 ? Where would we be then ?

If it is just a question of who grabs the save first...

I had thought about it as far back as that and I was pleased to get there first because I assumed that if you besieged the city before I got there I would have to fight you for it. In fact I discussed the possibility with Zim at the time.

If we're not going to go back, then at least I should be able to trap you in there and fight you for the loot. Otherwise what is the point of a siege at all?

[Zim]

I think Phonics would have been in favor of Zirn being able to try to stop him as well.

A lot of rules help or hurt one or another player. I think all we need is just some clarification on which we can safely ignore.

For instance, the rules state those troops the Prinz lent me are still his. After taking Zagreb I could say "well, they've been with me for a year now and have fought with me, I should be able take control of them. Surely they'll follow me if I give them all the loot from the city and promise more". Then I decare Zagreb part of the "duchy" Zimonia, with it and all settlements taken after being completely mine, as is the sacking money, but still saying when it advantages me I follow the normal rules as an elector because, after all, noone has declared war on me.

I would expect someone to complain (I would if it was soeone else), and would try to point to Zirn and Provence as precedent.

At any rate, I think our stances are laid out pretty well. It is now up to the wise and powerful GM to descend and make his pronouncement.

May I just add also that though taking the save earlier went in my favour this time, the situation could very well have been reversed had I accessed the save before Phonics on turn 31 ? Where would we be then ?

[phonicsmonkey]

The only way I can see Lothar and Leopold responding to each other is by fighting each other. That requires a declaration of war. As long as one player declares war publically or in a PM to me before Milan is taken, then it would be resolved in a PvP battle. As the rules stand right now, both sides have equal claim to assaulting Milan. It's regretable that this loophole in the rule exists, but it's not something that can be changed right now.

I would have liked to have done this, unfortunately I was offline and didn't get the chance. Of course I would prefer if it were up to him to attack me to get through but if it's the only way I can stop him then I'll do it. Could we wind back?

[GeneralHankerchief]

I am going to refrain from comment on any issue until Cecil gives his two cents.

[_Tristan_]

Ok, let us wind back to the previous save and forget I ever assaulted Milan... Lothar will just pack and go relieve the siege of Genoa...

Everybody's happy with this ?

[phonicsmonkey]

Nope, we thought of something better. Much better - no replays, no need to re-write history.

Now I'm in Genoa with you and I'm declaring war. Look forward to the battle.

[Zim]

Cecil did weigh in on Milan, even if some people disagreed. The ownership thing still confuses me though, and I don't even see how the sacking proceeds rule can be ignored...

Ok, let us wind back to the previous save and forget I ever assaulted Milan... Lothar will just pack and go relieve the siege of Genoa...

Everybody's happy with this ?

[Ignoramus]

Hey guys, sorry for my relative inactivity of late. Uni's been quite busy, but I hope to keep on top of things from now on.

[Zim]

No harm. I believe Merode is currently marching north towards Brandenburg.

Hey guys, sorry for my relative inactivity of late. Uni's been quite busy, but I hope to keep on top of things from now on.

[The Celtic Viking]

Well, the Margrave requested that he should move to Prague, i.e. Bohemia, but it's possible that he never got the message (I might have missed sending the PM). In any case, the request is now obsolete, as I had planned that he should lead an army from there into Poland, which he now can't do, thank you very much mr Pope.

[_Tristan_]

EDIT: here it is

The Prinz and his army enters the city of Genoa and declares war on Lothar Zirn, forcing him to fight for his life.

Not to be nitpicking, but I think this violates rule 7.1 : the declaration of war has to be made before taking the save... But nevermind...