V&V OOC/Signup Thread I

[Zim]

I'm also lending Vaclav the one unit I have in range, militia in Nuremburg. Is that something for the status thread or can I just pm Cecil?

Also, I have seen my doom and it is the Milanese army. It's larger than mine, full of superior units, and has cavalry.This is Becker signing off, hopefully to be still alive come dawn.

That....went poorly. I started with a disadvantage in terrain but managed to double time my troops to a fairly flat area. Sent my two man knight unit to lead their full Mailed Knight unit on a merry chase around the map, then managed to start routing their militia with a couple charges. Unfortunately I let Becker get tied up while trying to roll up the routers and watched his unit's numbers dropped as I tried in vain to order him out of melee.

[phonicsmonkey]

even if it probably will lead to Vaclav dying.

It's up to you of course, but I think we've lost enough Dukes for one turn!

Poor Becker, he deserved better than that...

[Cecil XIX]

It's up to you of course, but I think we've lost enough Dukes for one turn!

Poor Becker, he deserved better than that...

Seconded. Be careful, everybody.

[GeneralHankerchief]

I guess this gives you even more incentive to change your name back when the time comes, Zim.

[phonicsmonkey]

I think it's quite a good idea to keep the Kaiser from being burned at the stake. On reflection.

However, I strongly suspect there's a large Hungarian army bearing down on us from just nearby and if it attacks us we will be forced by the format of this game to fight it as an offensive battle won't we? Which would get us excommunicated anyway..Cecil am I wrong about that?

If I'm right and we want to avoid excommunication maybe the best thing is to withdraw from Budapest and go fight the Milanese instead to avenge Becker. Then if the Magyar come calling they'll be on our land and we can defend ourselves without incurring Papal wrath.

Is that right?

[Zim]

Seconded. Be careful, everybody.

I thought I was. While I can tend to sometimes just throw my generals into the fray I've been careful with Becker, and was completely ready to pull out and withdraw if needed. Then the shiny gold ring of a Milanese chain route loomed ahead of Becker, and he kept pushing for those last few dead enemy soldiers needed....until he ran into the pointy sticks of the more professional merc spearmen Milan was fielding...

I guess I'm in the queue behind Iggy for a new character. C'mon, everyone, expand so we get lots of adoptions and MotHs.

I guess this gives you even more incentive to change your name back when the time comes, Zim.

Indeed, unless maybe as a memorial.

P.S. I've decided that the more I have invested in a character, the more likely they are to die (except Arintheos for some reason). Henceworth, I shall try not to care about any generals I get.

[GeneralHankerchief]

I think it's quite a good idea to keep the Kaiser from being burned at the stake. On reflection.

However, I strongly suspect there's a large Hungarian army bearing down on us from just nearby and if it attacks us we will be forced by the format of this game to fight it as an offensive battle won't we? Which would get us excommunicated anyway..Cecil am I wrong about that?

If I'm right and we want to avoid excommunication maybe the best thing is to withdraw from Budapest and go fight the Milanese instead to avenge Becker. Then if the Magyar come calling they'll be on our land and we can defend ourselves without incurring Papal wrath.

Is that right?

I'm not quite sure of the specifics, which is why I left some room for maneuvering in the Kaiser's latest tirade. From what I remember (and this is probably more likely to be wrong), defensive battles don't trigger the Pope's wrath, offensive battles do, without respect to territory or anything like that.

[_Tristan_]

That's right, you can defend all you want without risk of being excomm'ed but don't go on the offensive...

[GeneralHankerchief]

Every single Heinrich in every parallel universe has just completely blown his stack right now.

[Cecil XIX]

Even worse then when the Byzantines took Rome in KotR and his scream from beyond the grave echoed across the whole world?

[phonicsmonkey]

Revenge on these Poles is now of paramount importance

[GeneralHankerchief]

Touché, Cecil.

[TheFlax]

Just posting to say I'll be able to play the save in a few hours.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Oog.

[Cecil XIX]

I think now would be a good time to solicit opinions from the players on the difficulty of V&V. In previous TW RPGs, the AI has generally been regarded as a non-threat. The question then is whether or not we have the opposite problem now. Thoughts?

Incidentally, I tried fighting the battle before I sent it to TheFlax. I camped out in a forest of course, but I was very impressed with how the AI handled me. They took the initiative immediately, charging my archers with their general. At first I thought it was the old "suicidal general" shtick, but after engaging the town militia the general actually withdrew! This occupied me long enough for the cavalry to surround me on both flanks, and then the AI really let me have it with a three-pronged assault. Even though they were mostly missile cavalry, I confess I made it worse when I became unnerved and broke my formation in a vain attempt to regain the initiative, and they made me pay for it. I tried to help the left flank by having Vaclav charge them from the rear, but then the enemy general charged Vaclav in the rear! It was a complete rout.

[TheFlax]

It was an interesting battle to play. I started in a similar fashion and things ended pretty much the same way, as you'll see in the battle report.

I think right now we are fighting too many factions at once. Inadvertently we might have shifted to the other extreme of the scale, finding ourselves in a somewhat impossible situation. Unlike LotR or KotF we don't have a ton of RGBs to help and we player controlled enemy factions, the AI won't be shuffling around or doing anything too stupid. Then there's the fact that we are against multiple factions. It just seems it could be toned down a bit. Though, I am all for having some losses and setbacks, the times in other games where we had a huge streak of wins with barely any losses felt pretty flat.

[phonicsmonkey]

I think the difficulty of this one is largely our own fault for playing with such reckless abandon. We all (myself included) hared off at the start invading left right and sundry as if we were playing a SP game against the AI. We then did it again when the event was over!

If instead we had taken a more measured approach, making alliances and treaties, building up and defending our borders sufficiently before extending ourselves in adventures I think we would have found it much more manageable. As it is we got stuck in a bit of a downward spiral. Having said that I still think we can turn it around, but only if we seriously buck up our ideas.

If we had played a hotseat game like this against other players we'd be dead by now. You can't just go around attacking your neighbours without diplomacy or strategy, unless you have overwhelming force, which we do not.

However, one thing I would say is that I don't think that most of the players have had enough money at any point to have any options about what to do. The only reason I've been able to keep a decent sized army is that Vienna is so rich and I built a silver mine. Dukes der Bartige, Becker, Premyslid and Hummel never had enough cash to defend their own lands properly. Under this ruleset there's not too much incentive to pool resource - I have been forced to do so recently because I could see the game ending abruptly if I did not, but otherwise I've been quite happy to sit on my treasury in the knowledge that I can use it to further my own character's ambitions at the expense of others.

So one suggestion I have is maybe to inject some cash into some of the less-rich settlements if they are to serve as capitals of a Duchy.

[Zim]

I think the challenge level would be just about right if we didn't go off in all directions as Phonics had said. I also never should have fought that battle, but felt pressured to defend the settlement Becker had so recently liberated and then been granted (so, in other words, fairly releastic motivations I think. ). I think the title of Duke also went to my head a little. I was the Duke of my House, and in my mind that meant I had to defend it (never mind I was in charge of a group of which I was the only member. ).

I believe we all learned our lesson pretty well. I know I'm raring to get another character and get back in, and planning on doing a story or two and maybe posting as an "anonymous elector" in the diet. The only thing I might suggest to the Emperor (although it is his Lordship's business) is maybe to hold off on naming new Dukes for a while. This will pool most of the impending new characters into one or the other of the new Houses, and I think in the current circumstances fewer Houses with more generals will better defend what lands we have, and any new ones we might get (and I fully encourage current players to conquer some land so we start getting adoption offers ).

I wouldn't mess too much with settlement income. Later in the game they'll be making plenty of money, and with our smaller number of Houses people will likely be pooling more resources, expecially after recent losses. I would actually be doing a lot of recruiting in a couple turns if Becker had lived. The money I lost was mostly in my time as a landless noble expected to pay his bodyguard's wages.

Also, I predict within a few months time that we'll be fighting all of our neighbors and complaining how easy it is.

[Ignoramus]

Hummel's sally was rather suicidal, but to be honest, he didn't have much to look forward too. Antwerp was a backwater, and the loss of Saxony really hurt him.

I did think the early expansion was too much, but then again, there wasn't enough conflict to prevent it.

[Zim]

Well, we don't need to worry about overstretching now that we've been relieved of most of our outlying settlements, and one central one.

I think Hummel had things to look forward to. If he had survived he'd likely have gotten any of the other territories in the area taken, and Antwerp would have become a rich city in a dozen or so turns. Plus, Flemish Cloth.

I'm interested to see what the coming turns will bring. Hopefully a more focused and cooperative HRE, but probably as dysfunctional of one as we've always had (and I'm including KOTR here).

Also, nice battle report up by TheFlax. I'll try to do one for Becker's last stand as well..

[phonicsmonkey]

Great battle report Flax, enjoyed that. Those spear from Frankfurt would have made all the difference I suspect. Ideally facing mounted ranged troops you would concentrate fire on them from foot archers and xbows. This is how I used to fight Mongols - a line of heavy spear to keep them at bay and banks of xbows to take out their HAs. You didn't really have the option though it seems.

[Zim]

I didn't even know Lothar was still alive.

[_Tristan_]

Yes, alive and kicking (Milan for now... German butts later )

[Cecil XIX]

I would like to announce that Ignoramus will be playing the part of the Kingdom of France for the remainder of the war. Please direct all IC queries to him, all previous messages to the Kingdom of France have been forwarded to him already.

[Ignoramus]

Guys, there was problem with that save for France.

A French army got attacked by an English army and I retreated. But then two small Imperial armies got attacked by Hungary and Milan and I couldn't do anything without resolving the battles. When I ended the turn, there was a diplomatic offer from Hungary to the HRE, which I couldn't ignore before saving.

What should I do?

[Nightbringer]

upload the save for France on the screen for the first battle. People will play both battles and choose the diplomacy option, then hand the save back to you?

[Cecil XIX]

Guys, there was problem with that save for France.

A French army got attacked by an English army and I retreated. But then two small Imperial armies got attacked by Hungary and Milan and I couldn't do anything without resolving the battles. When I ended the turn, there was a diplomatic offer from Hungary to the HRE, which I couldn't ignore before saving.

What should I do?

Hmm, you should be able to save at the screen where you decide whether to autosolve by pressing escape and bringing up the menu. I'm assuming you mean the remnant's of Becker's army which, since they're captain led, should be auto-resolved anyway. As for the diplomatic offer from Hungary, I'm guessing it will keep repeating itself so as long as you save before it you can check what is, then PM the offer to GH and me.

[Nightbringer]

It could be my army as well however.
Jens Herden

[Cecil XIX]

It could be my army as well however.
Jens Herden

You're right. I checked ahead and you get attacked by an eleven-hundred strong Hungarian army with about 400-500 horse archers.

Ignoramus, try this save. I had the French retreat from the English attack, then auto-resolved on the captain-led stack. If Nightbringer wants to fight then you'll need to find someway to save either at the fight screen or before it.

[Nightbringer]

um, can i retreat?
I have what, 100 men?